Robert Mapplethorpe 罗伯特·梅普勒索普
a known homosexual who died of AIDS 众所周知的同性恋，死于艾滋
and who spent the last years of his life promoting homosexuality. 临死几年都在宣扬同性恋
Now, if any senator doesn't know what I'm talking about 现在，如果哪位何议员不明白我在说什么
in terms of the art that I have protested, 有关我抗议的那种艺术
look at the pictures! 看看这些照片吧！
Now, any senator who thinks 如果有哪位议员认为
that I'm attacking aesthetic art-- 我抨击的是具有审美情趣的艺术
I don't know whether the television cameras can see it or not, 我不知道摄影机能不能拍到
I'm gonna be fast enough with it that they can't. 我会迅速地展示这些照片，尽量不让摄影机拍到
But I want senators to come over here, if they have any doubt, 但如果有议员对此持有怀疑，我希望他们亲自过来
and look at the pictures. 看看这些照片
In Cincinnati, police closed down the Mapplethorpe exhibit. 在辛辛那提，警察叫停了梅普勒索普摄影展
We are sending the Mapplethorpe exhibit to trial. 我们正将梅普勒索普摄影展送去受审
Come over here.Look at the pictures. 过来看看这些照片
One of two artists whose works led to a dispute... 两位作品引发争议的艺术家之一
Look at the pictures. Look at the pictures. 看看这些照片
Look at the pictures. 看看这些照片
Who is Mapplethorpe? 梅普勒索普是何方神圣？
The art gallery and its director 因为展览罗伯特·佩普勒索普晚期摄影作品
are charged with obscenity for exhibiting photographs by the late Robert Mapplethorpe. 美术馆和馆长被指控淫秽色情
Look at the pictures. 看看这些照片
Mapplethorpe's work is highly controversial. 梅普勒索普的作品饱受争议
Can I show it to you? 可以给你看看吗？ I don't want to look at it. 我不想看
I don't even acknowledge that it's art. 我甚至不认为那是艺术
Keep your hands off! 放在你的脏手！
I don't even acknowledge 我一点也不认为
that the fellow who did it was an artist. 拍出这种照片的人是个艺术家
I think he was a jerk... 我认为他是个混蛋
2011年，梅普勒索普基金会向盖蒂博物馆及 洛杉矶城市艺术博物馆捐赠价值3800万美金的作品
120000幅照片 2000张印本 311箱工艺品
This is one of five vaults 这就是储存梅普勒索普
in which Mapplethorpe's archive resides. 资料的五间库房之一
Audiovisual material is in here 音频资料在这里
along with more ephemeral paperwork from his studio and personal correspondence. 以及他工作室的一些临时文件和私人信件
Photographs are in a cooler environment, 照片储存在较凉爽的环境中
and Polaroids are in an even colder environment. 宝丽来相片储存在一个更冷的环境中
有史以来，盖蒂博物馆及洛杉矶城市艺术博物馆 第一次联合策划了两场回顾展
One of our big challenges is to really make a case 解释为何我们要同时举办
for why we're doing two concurrent exhibitions... 两场回顾展是有难度的
Right. 的确 ...about one artist. 两场回顾展还是同一名艺术家
This is two sides of one coin. 就像是硬币的不同两面
Yeah. 对
There is a duality that runs through Mapplethorpe's work and life 梅普勒索普的作品和生活中存在着一种双重性
and we hope to be able to divide the material 我们希望将展览的材料区分开来
in a way that would highlight that duality. 这样更能凸显那种双重性
两位馆长开始合作
This is a box of self-portraits. 这是一箱自拍作品 Right. 对
Oh. 噢 Oh. 喔
Yeah, biker jacket from the back. 《穿机车夹克的男人后视》
Yeah. 对
I really like this white piping 我真的很喜欢这个白色滚边
and how it leads up to this other shape. 它导向这个形状 Yeah. 嗯
That's one of the great ones. 这个很不错
When you say Mapplethorpe, people immediately think 每当提到梅普勒索普，人们立刻想到
of the controversies that happened during the '90s. 90年代的那些争议
Guerrilla Rebel. 《游击叛军》
Yeah. 对的
Mapplethorpe was being demonized 梅普勒索普被许多保守派政客
by conservative politicians, 妖魔化了
so one of our goals was to humanize Mapplethorpe, 我们想要人性化梅普勒索普
to bring him back into people's consciousness as a human being. 让人们重新意识到他也是个普通人
It's quite convincing. 太有说服力了
Ah. 啊 Oh. 噢
Mapplethorpe and bullwhip. 《梅普勒索普与牛鞭》
I remember it being a slightly higher contrast. 我记得对比度还要稍微高些
It's a different paper. 这个纸张不同 Right. 哦对
This is a lot warmer and softer. 这种纸色调更暖也更柔软
Mm-hmm. 嗯哼
The way his hand is, 他手的姿势
it's so great, it almost looks like he's releasing a shadow. 很棒，看上去几乎是在释放阴影
Yes. Because that cord comes just to the edge of the frame. 是的，因为那根绳子延伸到了相框边缘
The cord kind of connects the viewer with Mapplethorpe. 这根绳子将观众和梅普勒索普连接起来
Yeah. 对的
Because it's coming out of the picture. 因为绳子延伸出画框以外
As well as the eye contact. 他的眼神也是
Right. 对 Obviously, 显而易见
it's very defiant. 他的眼神十分挑衅
He's not hiding his face. He's not hiding his identity. 他没有掩饰自己的脸，没有掩饰自己的身份
He's not hiding what he's doing. 丝毫没有掩饰自己的所作所为
片名——《梅普勒索普：看看这些照片》
Robert was just...my younger brother. 罗伯特是我的小弟弟
I'm the oldest. 我是最年长的
That's myself, my brother Richard, 这是我，我弟弟理查德
Robert, Edward, Sue, and James. 罗伯特，爱德华，苏，还有詹姆斯
That's the six of us. 这就是我们六个
When we were young, we did a lot of coloring. 小时候我们玩了很多上色游戏
Robert always had weird things. 罗伯特的想法总是很怪异
He'd have a green face, 他给脸涂上绿色
or... just not the norm. 或者…反正不符合常规
Purple hair, or something. 紫色的头发之类的
And I'd say, "Why are you doing that for? 而我就会说：“你为什么要这样做？”
"That's not the way it's supposed to be." “事情不该是这样的”
As far as, like, photographs, 至于摄影
he never took photographs. 他从来不拍照片
My dad took a lot of photographs. 我爸爸倒是拍了不少照片
Robert, he had no interest in that at all. 罗伯特他对摄影一点也不感兴趣
My wife and I and the children moved here in 1949. 1949年，我和妻儿搬到这里
I was always interested in photography, 我向来喜好摄影
but none of my kids were until Eddie. 但我的孩子们没人喜欢，直到艾迪
I had all the equipment downstairs, a darkroom, 我在楼下的暗室里有各种器械
enlarger and printer and dryer and everything else. 照片放大机、打印机、干燥机还有其他的器材
This is the block we lived on. 这就是我们当时居住的街区
See, all the houses were the same? 看见没有，所有房子都一个模样
This is during the snow. 这是在下雪的时候拍的
This is Robert here with two of his friends. 罗伯特在这里，和他的两个朋友
You know, we had to be home a certain time for dinner, 你知道，我们到了饭点就得回家吃晚饭了
and you had to sit at the table until you finished your dinner. 你得坐在餐桌旁边，直到晚饭吃完
Robert was this regular kid. 罗伯特是个普普通通的孩子
One thing was, his endurance on a pogo stick. 他在蹦蹦跷上能坚持很久
He was having competitions with people. 经常和其他人比赛
He would go all the way around the block on a pogo stick. 他可以在蹦蹦跷上跳遍整个街区
Robert was the pogo stick champ of 259th Street, of the neighborhood. 罗伯特是259号大街社区的蹦蹦跷冠军
He just could go on forever, and he was so proud of that. 他可以一直不停地跳，对此十分自豪
You know, there's something about black and white pictures that are so much better 你知道，黑白照片有一点非常出色
because they last. 它们能保存很久
I took this of Robert in front of our house, right? 我在家门口给罗伯特拍了这张照片
The rest of them, all these, he took of me, 剩下的这些，是他给我拍的
and, I believe, is probably the first pictures he took. 我认为这些可能是他最初拍摄的照片
There was this television program in the early '50s. 50年代早期有一款电视节目
Someone would give them something to taste with their blindfolds on 有人给嘉宾喂东西吃，他们都戴着眼罩
and you would have to guess what it is. 然后去猜那是什么
That's how we play the game, identifying items by means of our five senses. 这个游戏就是这么玩的，依靠五官来辨别物件
Well, we Mapplethorpe kids made our own 我们一家创造了我们自己版本的
"Sense and Nonsense" game. “感知与胡说八道”游戏
Robert, little devil that he was, 罗伯特当时就是个小恶魔
went to one of the many ashtrays around the house, 跑去家里的一个烟灰缸
which were always full, 里面总是堆满了烟灰
and put ashes in my brother's mouth, 他放了一勺烟灰在我弟弟嘴里
and they were fuming. 家里人勃然大怒
That's the kind of stuff he did, that kind of needling stuff. 这种事情就是他会做的，这种招惹是非的事
So he was a devilish guy. 所以他的确是一个像恶魔一样的人
We never missed Mass on Sunday. 周日我们总会去做弥撒
We always went to church. 到教堂里去
And I still do. 到现在我仍在坚持
I first met Robert Mapplethorpe 我最初认识罗伯特·梅普勒索普
when I was assigned to Our Lady of the Snows Parish in Floral Park. 当时我被派到花卉公园下的雪女教区
They were active in the parish, you know, 他们在教区表现很活跃
so I got to know the whole family. 因此我有机会了解这一家人
So Robert just kind of took to me, 他有点喜欢我
and I, you know, took to him. 不瞒你说，我也有点喜欢他
And... he used to paint me pictures. 他帮我画画
He drew me a couple of paintings of the Blessed Mother, the Virgin Mary, 给我画了几幅圣母玛利亚的画
and I thought to myself, "He's been too influenced by Picasso." 我当时在想：“他受毕加索影响太多了”
You know? 你懂的吧
But anyway, I have to say that, first, 不管怎么样，我得说
he was the only person I knew 他是我认识的唯一一个
who could sit on a couch and chew his toenails. 可以坐在沙发上啃脚趾甲的人
The other thing was, you'd look at Robert 另外，当你看着罗伯特的时候
and I think the first thing you'd notice is his eyes. 我觉得你一定会首先注意到他的眼睛
They were huge, 那双眼睛太大了
and as if he was always looking, 就好像他永远在观察
always penetrating, always... 永远在洞悉，永远在…
you know, trying to get through. 你懂的，尝试看透万物
梅普勒索普： I come from this, you know, suburban America. 我来自美国郊区
It was a very safe environment, 那里的气氛十分保守
and it was a good place to come from 来自这样的地方是件好事
in that it was a good place to leave. 因为它让你想要离开
He never quite really fit in 你知道吗，他从来没有
with all these other teenage boys, you know? 真正与其他的小男孩打成一片
There was something very fragile about Robert. 罗伯特身上有某种十分脆弱的特质
梅普勒索普： 我有一些朋友，但我还是独来独往
我不停地在画画，然后上高中的时候
我就知道我想成为一名艺术家，不管那是什么样的
Robert was mom's favorite. I don't know why though. 母亲最宠爱罗伯特，虽然我不知道为什么
I can't put my finger on specific things, 对此我改变不了什么
but I always say, "Oh, Robert was her favorite." 但我总会调侃说“噢，罗伯特是她的最爱”
梅普勒索普： Somehow that just wasn't enough for me. 不知怎么的，这对我来说还不够
Robert was smart. Everything came easy to him. 罗伯特十分聪明，任何事情对他来说都很容易
I worked like a dog for my marks, 为了取得好成绩我没日没夜地学习
but he graduated at 16. 但他16岁就能够毕业了
梅普勒索普： As soon as I could, I started art school training, 我尽可能快地开始了艺术院校的训练
and I moved to Brooklyn. 并且搬到了布鲁克林
My dad was basically against it. 父亲总的来说是反对的
My father thought, you can do it as a hobby, 他认为你可以把艺术作为一门爱好
but what are you ever gonna do with art? 但你能用艺术干出什么丰功伟绩呢
Did you know that photography 你知道摄影
and homosexuality share something in common? 与同性恋有一个共同点吗
Growing respect for photography in the art world 艺术界对摄影的尊重与日俱增
occurred simultaneously 与此同时
with the growing visibility of the gay rights movement. 同性恋权利运动也越来越频繁
Each suffered a gauntlet of prejudice during their coming of age. 两者在发展期间都遭受了一场偏见的挑战
Just as Mapplethorpe was starting out, 在梅普勒索普生涯的初期
to be openly gay was still very much a cultural taboo. 公开出柜仍是文化禁忌
And photography was considered not much more than a utilitarian medium, 摄影被认为只是一种功利主义的媒介
an applied art, a bastard of the arts. 是一种应用艺术，在当时被看作艺术的杂种
He was very young when he started Pratt. 他在普瑞特艺术学院上学的时候还十分年轻
He just looked like a little boy and people made fun of him. 他看上去像个小男孩，人们总是取笑他
At that time his name was Bob Mapplethorpe, 当时他还叫作鲍勃·梅普勒索普
and to further diminish him, 为了进一步损他
they called him "Maypo," 那些人叫他“马波”
because that was a children's cereal back in those days. 因为那是当时儿童的一种谷类食品
He was not macho. 他不是特别具有男子气概的那种人
梅普勒索普： 我从来没有想要成为一名摄影师
在大学我必需修摄影课程
我讨厌它
它看上去不那么像一种艺术形式
你知道，我当时是一个自命清高的人
He told me he would take his father's negatives to class 他告诉我他会带他父亲的底片去上课
and present them as his own work. 作为他自己的作品去展示
He was a fuckup. 他简直是个混蛋
So I was interested in his experience at Pratt 我对他在普瑞特艺术学院的经历
and how he found himself as an artist there. 以及在那里如何找到了自己的艺术人格很感兴趣
Is that a self-portrait? 这是幅自画像？
Yes. This one's actually ink, 是的，这实际上是墨印
so I'm imagining he, like, rolled an oil-based ink onto his face. 所以我想象他在他的脸上滚了一团油基墨水
Mm-hmm. Yeah. 嗯哼 对 Yeah. 是的
Which is kind of hard to comprehend. 这有点难以理解
The psychedelia of it too. 以及它所表现的迷幻文化
He was really into acid at the time. 他那时候嗑迷幻药上瘾
We both had a similar background. 我们有着相似的背景
Right off the bat, I think we kind of hit it off. 立刻觉得我俩一见如故
He started taking drugs and smoked marijuana. LSD. 他开始吸毒和抽大麻，还有致幻剂
We both were living on 基本上，我俩都靠
candy bars and cigarettes, basically, 糖果和香烟为生
and he was getting really skinny and we were both really pale-looking... 他渐渐变得瘦削，我俩都看上去面无血色
But we smoked, and so he put LSD in the cigarette. 但是我们不停抽烟，他把迷幻剂滴进香烟里
I completely lost my memory. 我想不起来当时的事情了
And so... I, uh... 然后…我…额…
I don't know, I'm losing track now. 我不知道，我现在失去了方向
I'm kind of like, having a... 我有点…
I'm going back there too much, I guess. 我觉得我回忆得太多了
梅普勒索普： When I was in art school, I'd stay up all night, stoned, 当我在艺术学校的时候，我会整夜不睡，醉醺醺的
trying to think what hasn't been done, 想要想出还有什么是前人没有做过的
and I was obsessed with trying to come up with a new approach to art 我一直在努力想出一种新的艺术方法
and to be unique somehow. 而且要独树一帜
Bob and I realized you have to get a little name recognition 鲍勃和我意识到你必须得到一点名声
and sometimes the weird thing works-- can work well for you. 这样就算那些最古怪的事对你来说也会迎刃而解
So, somewhere along the way there, he had purchased this little monkey 所以不知从哪，他买来了一只猴子
and he named it Scratch, 取名叫“挠挠”
and I did some really nice drawings of Scratch. 我给挠挠画了很多漂亮的画
The monkey had some bad habits. 这猴子有一些坏习惯
The monkey masturbated a lot, 它不停地在自慰
and the monkey threw crap at you sometimes. 有时候还会朝你丢东西
He would walk around with the monkey on his shoulder 他会背着猴子到处走
and he was wearing a black cape. 穿着一件黑色披风
Robert and I graduated Pratt in '67, 罗伯特和我在1967年从普瑞特毕业
the Summer of Love and blah, blah, blah. 那时候正是嬉皮之夏
And here is Robert standing all by himself 罗伯特在这里，一个人站着
in a corner, hanging, you know, hiding his face. 躲在角落里，藏着半张脸
He's extremely mysterious. 他太神秘了
And that's who he was. 他就是这样的
The final project for both of us 我俩的毕业设计
was to make a musical instrument out of a bone. 是要用骨头做一把乐器
Then I remember, I got a call from Bob 我记得我接到鲍勃的电话
and he was all kind of weepy and he said, 他哭着说
"I don't know what to do. Scratch has died." “我不知道怎么办，挠挠死了”
It was maybe two o'clock in the morning. 那时候大概凌晨两点钟
He came in and he was really shook. 他过来了，十分震惊的样子
He said,"I boiled Scratch's head, 他说“我把挠挠的头煮了”
"and I've got my bone, “我有骨头材料了”
"but, you know, it was terrible. “但是你知道，感觉太糟糕了”
"It smelled terrible. I hated doing it, I had to cut his head off." “闻起来太恶心了，我讨厌这样做，我得把他的头砍下来”
So he aced the project. 就这样他成功完成了这个项目
Yeah. 就这样
梅普勒索普： There was a lot of negativity, 当时太多负能量了
even at Pratt, toward what I did. 即使是在普瑞特，对于我从事的那些事情
You know, people would say, 人们也会说
"That isn't art, that isn't the way you make art," “这不是艺术，从事艺术不是这样子的”
and I just did it the way I wanted to do it. 而我还是按照自己的想法去做了
Robert set himself apart from his classmates. 罗伯特将自己从同学圈子中孤立起来
It's a beast and this is his backside. 这画的是头野兽，这是它的屁股
It's a pose that he uses himself 在之后的自拍作品中
later on in self-portraits. 他常用这个姿势 Hmm. 嗯
If you compare it to "Bullwhip,"that backward pose, 如果你把这幅作品与《牛鞭》做比较，这个背朝观众的姿势
he already has it in his mind. 当时他就已经构思出来了
The last time I saw Bob, he had no clothes on. 我最后一次看见鲍勃，他什么也没穿
He was afraid. He had all the furniture stacked up against the door, 他很害怕，把所有的家具都靠在门上
and he was really beside himself and he said, 他真的疯了，他说
"I'm afraid. I'm afraid. Someone's coming. Someone's coming. “我害怕，我害怕，有人来了，有人来了”
Could you give me $20?" “能给我20块钱吗？”
有人的确来了 1967年，一名年轻女子在他睡觉时走进了他的公寓
她叫帕蒂·史密斯
I met Robert accidentally 我是偶然认识罗伯特的
and he was just a boy. I mean, we were both 20. 当时他还只是个毛头小子，我的意思是，我们都才20岁
He was... He was a kid going to Pratt, 他是个在普瑞特念书的年轻人
and we fell in love and he was my boyfriend. 我们恋爱了，他成为了我的男友
梅普勒索普： It was the first time I had ever been in love with anybody, 那是我第一次爱上别人
so the fact that it was-- it was somebody as unique as Patti, 事实是，帕蒂太独一无二了
I mean, she was-- she was a magical kind of person. 我是说，她是——她是一个奇妙的人
So like, you know, and she was-- 就像是，你知道，她——
she was supportive of what I was doing, or my magic, 她支持我做的事情，我的那些奇妙想法
and I was supportive of her magic. 我也很支持她
Neither one of us were ever jealous, 我们都没有嫉妒对方
so it was like, you know, it was like a storybook relationship. 所以，你知道，这就像是一段故事书里的关系
He helped me to build confidence in my work 他帮助我树立了对自己作品的信心
and to think of myself as artist, 能够把自己当成一名艺术家
to have a concept of oneself as an artist. 建立起自己作为艺术家的概念
That was always really important to Robert, 这一点对罗伯特来说永远是至关重要的
not as an apprentice, not as a student, 不是作为学徒，不是作为学生
but as an artist. 而是作为一名艺术家
I loved photographing my friends, 我喜欢给朋友拍照
and Robert called me and said, "Can you do some naked pictures of Patti and me? 罗伯特打电话给我说：“你能给帕蒂和我拍些裸照吗？”
I want to make a little film called 'Garden of Earthly Delights.'" “我想拍一部叫《人间欢乐花园》的小电影。”
So then we set up lights on the back of a chair, 然后我们在椅子后面设置灯光
and I just took the pictures that he asked for. 我按他的要求拍了几张照片
Robert and Patti were so beautiful in such an interesting way 罗伯特和帕蒂以如此有趣的方式展现他们的美
and in an unconventional way, I think. 我认为这是一种非常反传统的方式
He exuded this kind of androgynous sexuality, 他散发出这种雌雄同体的性别魅力
and so did Patti. 帕蒂也是
Patti was drawing all the time, 帕蒂整天都在画画
and Robert was drawing all the time and making things. 罗伯特除了画画之外还做一些东西
You know, it was messy. 简直一片狼藉
There was stuff hanging around, tacked up on the walls. 东西挂在四处，钉在墙上
It looked like a scene from a Godard movie. 就像是戈达尔电影中的场景
1969年，这对年轻情侣搬进了曼哈顿切尔西酒店最小的房间
We sat for hours and hours, night after night, drawing 我们日以继夜地坐着画画
and, you know, drawing from each other as well as drawing. 有时也相互画对方
I'm a thief and I dig it. 我是个贼，我喜欢这种感觉
A good thief never hesitates. 好贼永远不会犹豫不前
A good thief steals clean. 好贼偷得干干净净
And I'm stealing now. And I'm stealing now. 我正在行窃
And I'm stealing now. 行窃的人是我
The Chelsea has been home 切尔西酒店作为艺术家的聚居地
for more than a century to a colony of artists 已经有一个多世纪了
who have also celebrated it in books, 他们在书籍
poems, plays, dance, and painting. 诗歌、戏剧、舞蹈和绘画中屡次提到切尔西酒店
梅普勒索普： I kept on saying to Patti... 我总是跟帕蒂说…
我怎么混下去？
我怎么养活自己？我不知道
我真的不知道
我当了几天应召男郎
这都是为了生存
你得对你做的事情怀有信心
你得愿意做任何事情去实现目标
I loved them. We were like a family. 我爱他们，我们就像是一家人一样
桑迪·戴利住在隔壁，照顾着罗伯特和帕蒂 He kept telling me I was like a sister. 他总说我就像是一个大姐姐
Patti was working like crazy to let us live. 帕蒂疯狂地工作，以维持生活花销
I mean, she was very generous, 我是说，她非常大度
and she wasn't jealous of me at all, which is wonderful. 而且她一点也不嫉妒我，这太棒了
She trusted me with Robert, totally. 她绝对地信任我和罗伯特待在一起
I never was in love with him 我从来没有爱上过他
or had any sexual feelings for him, 或者对他有过什么非分之想
but we were very close. 但我们十分亲近
We would sit in my totally white, empty room at the Chelsea, 我们会坐在切尔西的一间全白的空房里
which supposedly had had Oscar Wilde stay in it, 据说奥斯卡·王尔德曾经住过
and had had Jackson Pollock stay in it. 杰克逊·波洛克（美国抽象表现主义绘画大师）也曾住过
And I had Warhol's clouds floating, the helium clouds. 房间里飘着云一样的氦气球，就是安迪·沃霍尔的银云那种
That's all I had in the room, 这就是房间里的全部了
and a mattress. 还有床垫
We lived on the floor and it was clean enough to eat off of them. 我们就在地板上过日子，地板干净得都可以吃下去
That's exactly what we did. 这就是我们当时干的事情
It was a 25-hour art show all the time, 我们的生活就是一天25小时的艺术表演
or movie set or whatever you would wanna call the life. 或者是电影系列，或者随便你怎么说
It was just the life being recorded. 我们就这样把生活记录下来
In a stark, sun-drenched studio, 在一间了无修饰、阳光明媚的工作室里
lives filmmaker Sandra Daley. 住着电影制作人桑德拉·戴利
当本地媒体做一期关于切尔西酒店的报道时， 戴利让梅普勒索普参与其中
I called him up, I said, 我给他打了电话，我说
"Could you bring over some of the things “你能不能带点你做的东西过来？”
"and put them up on the walls? “挂在墙上”
Because there's nothing here, you know, it's all white." “因为墙上太空了，你知道，全是一片灰白”
And he came over with the stuff, 他就带了些东西过来
and I looked, I thought, "God, leather pants with a cock sticking out." 我看了看，想着：“天哪，有只鸡巴伸出来的皮裤”
I thought, "Why not?" It looked fabulous. 我想：“为什么不呢？”看起来精彩绝伦
梅普勒索普： I was working with articles of clothing. 我当时在做一些衣物的展览品
They were kind of like fetish sculpture. 它们有点像恋物雕塑
You know, if I had a jacket that I wore all the time, I'd put it in a piece 你知道，我会把我常穿的夹克拿去做成这样的艺术品
and, you know. So it was like assemblage. 所以它就像一个大杂烩
What's made you live in the Chelsea for the past seven years? 过去七年你为什么一直住在切尔西酒店？
Um, my friends, I guess, live here, 嗯，我想是因为我的朋友住在这里
and my teachers. 还有我的老师
It's my home. 这就是我的家
Robert didn't say much. 罗伯特话不多
He didn't talk at all, did he, in that clip? 他一点也不说话，是吗，在那个片段里？
Robert could sit in silence 罗伯特可以一言不发地坐着
a lot more comfortably than I could. 比我更自在
I'm Edward Mapplethorpe. 我是爱德华·梅普勒索普
Robert Mapplethorpe's brother. 罗伯特的弟弟
I was three years of age when he left the house. 他离开家的时候我三岁
I remember just waiting anxiously on my stoop 我还记得焦急地等着
and knowing Robert and Patti were coming. 罗伯特和帕蒂过来
And then I'd be like, "Wow." Like, "Wow, look at these guys." 然后我就会惊叹：“哇哦，瞧瞧他们”
I mean, they didn't look like anybody else. 我的意思是，他们看上去就跟别人不一样
They didn't talk like anybody else. 说话也跟别人不一样
I would say, creature. They were like creatures. 野兽，他们就像野兽一样
Just the way he dressed, the way he carried himself. 他的穿着，他的举止
The way his hair was, the way, uh... 他的发型，他的…
It was just... 就…
It encompassed him. 包围着他
The art, the artist encompassed him. 艺术和艺术家包围着他
There was no separation. 他和艺术没有隔阂
梅普勒索普开始用同志色情杂志创造拼贴画
梅普勒索普： 我第一次去42号大街的时候
我看着橱窗里包装着玻璃纸的杂志封面
我的肚子里有种感觉
它让我…不是勃起，这些照片没有让我勃起
但这绝对是种禁忌
它们永远包装在玻璃纸里面，让人不能直接看到
你知道我做了什么吗？我有次从一个瞎的报纸商那里偷了几本这样的杂志
然后我被抓了
Wow. 哇
I see them as exquisite. 我觉得这些十分精美
Most porn looks amateurish 大多数色情作品都很业余
and lower class. 较为次等
Just make it look like, 梅普勒索普让它们看上去就像
I think I said a Louis Quinze chair, 路易十五时代的椅子一样
so that it just takes your breath away. 让你不禁屏住呼吸
It doesn't matter what the subject matter is. 无所谓它的主题是什么
It's like a love story...to porn, maybe. 就像是色情的爱情故事，或许
梅普勒索普： There was a feeling I could get 即便是看着色情图像
through looking at pornographic imagery, 我也能得到一些感触
and I thought if I could somehow retain that feeling, you know, 我想如果我能设法留住这种感觉
it was like, maybe it was the forbidden because I was young, you know. 就像是，或许这些色情图像被禁止是因为我还太年轻
That if I could get that across and make an art statement, 如果我能让这些图像被人理解，做出一种艺术宣言
make it do it in a way that just kind of, like, 以某种方式使其
reached a certain kind of perfection 达到一种完美
that I would be doing something that was uniquely my own. 这样我就能独树一帜
Oh, and that one even includes a camera. 噢，那幅作品中甚至有一台摄影机
Right. 对的 And that--He highlighted it. 他还着重了摄影机
And this was before he was even making photographs. I think. 我觉得这是在他开始玩摄影之前
But this is when he started thinking, "It may be cheaper for me..." 就在这时他开始想：“拍照片
Yeah. Yeah. 嗯，嗯 ...to take photographs than buy all this porn. 比买色情杂志更便宜”
梅普勒索普： I wanted raw material that originated with myself. 我想要自己原创的创作材料
I felt that I was stealing them from other people, 我之前有种从别人那里偷窃的感觉
and so that's how I started with the Polaroids. 于是我开始玩宝丽来
You know, it was not because I wanted to be a photographer. 而这并不是因为我想要成为一名摄影师
史密斯： We had a Polaroid camera 我们有了一台宝丽来相机
and Polaroid film was really expensive, 但是宝丽来胶片非常昂贵
so my focus was always that Robert got what he needed first. 所以我总是先保证罗伯特拍到了他想要的东西
And we had so little money for film. 我们资金实在有限
We concentrated on getting him the film. 我们集中财力让他能够去拍摄
梅普勒索普： It was all there from the start. 我摄影的风格要素一开始就在那儿了
And when I first started taking Polaroids, 我最初拍宝丽来相片的时候
I was working with photographs that dealt with sexuality, 我拍的照片的主题是性
portraits, flowers, and still lives 肖像、花，还有一些静物
because I used the still lives to experiment with lighting. 因为我用静物来练习采光
These are the first times that Robert took emulsion. 这是罗伯特用照相乳胶拍摄的首批照片
He washed it off of the Polaroid till it floated above the base 他把它从宝丽来上洗掉，直到它浮在基底上
and stretched them out. 再把它们拉伸开来
That's me, ugly as ever. 那是我，一如既往的丑
Here's Patti. 这是帕蒂
And that's David Croland. 那是大卫·克罗兰
I'm really not a model anymore. 我其实不再是模特了
I'm just a... you know, an object. 我只是…一个物件
If you want an explanation of why I'm wearing this robe, 如果你想知道为什么我穿着这袍子
it's for Robert, and Robert liked robes, 是因为罗伯特，他喜欢袍子
and he liked black silk. 他喜欢黑色丝绸
And I thought twice about it, and then I thought, 这件事我反复考虑了，然后我想：
"You're not gonna think three times." “你可别在纠结它了”
Patti is the first girl he photographed for Polaroid 帕蒂是他用宝丽来拍摄的第一个女孩
and I was the first boy. 而我就是第一个男孩
I met Robert in 1970 on Memorial Day, 我在1970年的阵亡将士纪念日认识了罗伯特
on a steamy hot day. 那是闷热的一天
As soon as he got his camera, 他一拿到相机
the film was loaded and my clothes were off. 胶卷就装上了，我的衣服也脱了
Starting with a robe 开始我穿着一件袍子
and then the robe was, like, here, et cetera, et cetera. 然后长袍就褪到了这里，然后越脱越多
He photographed me a lot in that. 他给我拍了很多照片
And in those days, I just thought, "Who cares? Polaroid film?" 在那些日子里，我只是想：“谁在乎？宝丽来胶片？”
I was used to being photographed by the big format, 我习惯了被一些大佬拍摄
you know, by...Should we drop some names? 被…我应该透露一些名字吗？
Someone said, "Stop dropping names." 有人说：“别再提名字了”
I said, "I can't help it if everyone I know is fantastic." 我说：“如果我认识的每个人都很棒，我就情不自禁了”
So I thought these Polaroids were like, "What the hell are these?" 所以我觉得这些宝丽来像是，“这些到底是什么鬼呀？”
I saw very quickly that he wasn't just stacking up a bunch of Polaroids. 我很快就发现他不仅仅是在收集一堆宝丽来
He was making stuff out of them. 他是在用它们做东西
He was incorporating them into a new type of art, 他把它们融入到一种新的艺术中
which no one was doing. 前无古人
No one. 没有人
Uh-uh. 嗯
And then someone called Patti to say they are boyfriends. 然后有人打电话给帕蒂说我们是男朋友关系
So that was...We were busted. 然后我们被抓了个现行
Patti knew that I was helping Robert, 帕蒂知道我在帮助罗伯特
so there was no animosity, not at all. 所以我们之间根本就没有敌意
At least, I don't think so. 至少我觉得没有
When you're young, you don't have much of a conscience. 年轻时没有太多良心
I mean, when you're young, I don't even know if you think. 我是说，年轻时我都不知道是不是会思考
I don't even think it's a good idea to think, to this day. 直到今天，我都不认为思考是个好主意
It's just better to do stuff. 还不如直接行动
I had this small amount of money. 我有一点钱
I could make a movie. 可以去拍一部电影
I said, "Robert, you can pick out anything you want to do." 我说：“罗伯特，你可以挑你想做的任何事”
梅普勒索普： I just thought it would be interesting to have 我觉得戴乳环
a ring through your tit 会很有趣
because I maybe seen it in a movie or something, 因为我好像是在电影里看到有这样的东西
but it wasn't something anybody had at that moment. 但那不是当时任何人都有的东西
And all of a sudden, there was a whole situation where I was... 突然间，我就在
to get my nipple pierced. 穿乳环了
I had done a number of films for Andy Warhol, 我为安迪·沃霍尔拍了不少影片
so I was used-- 所以我——
and as a model I was used to having the camera trained on me. 作为一个模特，我习惯于让摄像机对准我
Yes. 是的
But I had no idea where that film was going. 但是我不清楚影片的去向
Where that film went was to the Museum of Modern Art, 是拿去现代艺术博物馆
and it showed there at a big screening. 在一个大荧幕上展览
鲍勃·科拉切洛（作家）： MoMA was very crowded, 现代艺术博物馆人来人往
and I was writing film reviews then for the "Village Voice," 当时我在为《乡村之声》写电影评论
and I remember Robert was standing against the wall 我记得罗伯特靠墙站着
and he had this sort of angelic kind of hair, 他的头发像天使一样
and I guess I had a crush on him and whatever. 我觉得我立刻喜欢上了他
Right way, in my mind, I saw him as an angel and a devil. 在我心里，我把他看作天使和魔鬼的结合体
Then Patti has this brilliant monologue 帕蒂有一段精彩的独白
that she did as the soundtrack. 作为影片的音轨
史密斯（泽西口音）： I read this book, Robert had this book in his-- 我读了这本书，罗伯特抽屉里
he had this book in his drawer called "Leather Boys," 有这本叫《皮革男孩》的书
and, like, I picked it up the other night because he went out. 前几天晚上他出去了，我把它拿了出来
Once he got his leather pants, he would be down on Christopher Street. 一旦他穿上皮裤，他就会去克里斯托弗街
Like, it was like my boyfriend or nothing. 我不知道罗伯特还是不是我男朋友
I guess the reason-- the only reason I don't like it 我觉得我不喜欢它的唯一原因
is because, like, they got secrets. 是因为，罗伯特和其他男人有了秘密
科拉切洛： "In sharp counterpoint to the delicacy of the visuals 与视觉效果的精妙形成鲜明对比的是
"is the harsh and hilarious soundtrack by Patti Smith, 帕蒂·史密斯尖锐而滑稽的音轨
"poet, Robert's ex-girlfriend..." 她是个诗人，罗伯特的前女友
"...who, it seems, dislikes homosexuals because, 她好像不喜欢同性恋，因为
"A, she feels left out, 第一，她觉得被冷落了
and B, they use their assholes." 第二，他们操屁眼
He called me after the review came out and said that he really liked it 评论发表后他给我打过电话说他很喜欢
and could we, like, meet for a cup of coffee or something. 我们可以见面喝杯咖啡或者什么吗
Robert and I would, you know, meet up, like, at 4:00 in the afternoon, 罗伯特和我本来约好下午四点见面
go into some deserted restaurant and sit-- 到一家餐馆去，坐下来
you know, just order coffee, 你懂的，点杯咖啡
and he only had a Polaroid then. 他那时只有一台宝丽来
He didn't even have a camera. 甚至连摄像机都没有
But he was already, you know, planning on his first exhibition, 但是他已经在筹办他的首次展览了
and who he was going to invite and who he hoped would come. 在考虑要邀请谁，希望谁来
This is Robert Mapplethorpe's announcement 这是罗伯特·梅普勒索普
for his first solo exhibition. 首次个人展览的宣传单
The envelope is embossed by Tiffany and Company. 信封是由蒂芙尼压印的
It was a show of Polaroids. 这是一个宝丽来照片的展览
He encased his announcement in the "don't touch here" safety cover 他把宣传单放在了印有“不要触碰”的封套中
from the Polaroid film pack. 以保护宝丽来胶片
Mapplethorpe says in several interviews, 梅普勒索普多次在访谈中说道：
"An exhibition doesn't begin when you go to the opening. “一次展览并不始于开幕式”
It begins when you get the invitation." “它在你拿到邀请函的那一刻就已经开始了”
It's a small dot sticker... 这是个小小的圆形贴纸…
that's really not opaque. 其实并不是不透明的
采访者：But what do you want the viewer to feel 但当观众打开邀请函时
when they open that invitation? 你想让他们感受到什么？
梅普勒索普： I want them to remember it, that's all. 我想让他们过目不忘，仅此而已
采访者： You're thinking of, like, 你想从
standing out from this huge mass--大众中脱颖而出——
梅普勒索普： Why can't it be in terms of one's whole lifestyle? 为什么标新立异不能成为一个人的生活方式呢？
You know what I'm saying? 你知道我在说什么吗？
The whole point of being an artist or making a statement 成为艺术家或发表声明的全部意义
is to learn about yourself. 在于去探索自我
I think that's the most important part. 我认为这才是最重要的部分
The photographs, I think, are less important 那些照片，相比一个人的生活
than the life that one is leading. 我觉得不是很重要
70年代早期，纽约的艺术家们被吸引到麦克斯堪萨斯城
I would just run around and give people their food. 我当时在餐厅里到处给客人上菜
And it really was a comprehensive scene of downtown artists. 市中心的艺术家都在这里，简直包罗万象
Not a closed world, but it was, you know, almost like a clubhouse in a way. 这不是一个封闭的世界，但在某种程度上，它就像一个俱乐部
弗朗·莱鲍维茨（作家）： I probably saw Robert almost every night of my life. 我几乎每天晚上都见到罗伯特
You know, most people that I knew lived in such horrible places 你知道，我认识的大多数人都住在如此可怕的地方
that you really only knew where they lived if you had sex with them. 糟糕到如果你跟一个人做爱，你只知道他住在哪
Lots of times in Max's, he would come and sit with me, you know. 在麦克斯的很多时候，他会过来和我坐坐
It was probably the time I enjoyed Robert the most 那可能是我最喜欢罗伯特的时候
because he was an incredibly amusing gossip. 因为他是一个非常有趣的大嘴巴
He was extremely good-looking in a very particular way, you know. 你知道，某种角度上，他非常英俊
No one that saw Robert 没有人一看见罗伯特
did not have a crush on him immediately. 不会立刻就爱上他
No one. Everyone. Dogs liked him. 没有人，所有人都喜欢他，狗子都喜欢他
He looked kind of like, you know, a kind of ruined cupid. 他看起来有点像，一个被摧残了的丘比特
And he was very reliant on his charm, you know. 你知道，他非常依赖自己的魅力
I mean, in other words, he made great use of it, 换句话说，他善于利用自己的魅力
by which I mean, productive to Robert. 这对罗伯特来说很有用
Robert was not a hustler. Robert didn't have to hustle. 罗伯特不是个骗子，他不必玩弄诡计
People hustled Robert... 人们从罗伯特那里取得好处
mainly out of his pants if they could. 主要是谋财，如果可以的话
Me too, by the way. 其实我也一样
Robert didn't think anything was wrong with his ambition. 罗伯特认为他的雄心壮志没有任何问题
He didn't think of it as selling out. 他不觉得那是一种卖弄
He didn't think--He just, you know, pursued it the way that people now do. 他不认为——他只是，你知道，像人们现在这样追求它
Was Robert ambitious? 罗伯特很有野心吗？
There is no word for it. 简直没有话可以描述
For either of them. 无论是罗伯特还是他的野心
That is an understatement. 这算是轻描淡写了
For both of them. 对罗伯特和他的野心都是这样
Yeah. 是的
Unbelievably. 简直难以置信
I went away for a summer, 有一个夏天我离开了
and when I got back, Robert was suddenly into S&M. 当我回来时，罗伯特突然喜欢上了虐恋文化
One day, I showed up at his place 有一天我到他家去
and he was wearing leather pants 他正穿着皮裤
and it looked like a radio attached to his crotch. 看起来像是挂在他胯部的收音机
I said, "What the hell is that?" 我说：“这是什么鬼啦？”
He said, "Oh, it's a codpiece. Isn't it great?" 他说：“噢，这是块遮阴布，是不是很棒？”
I said, "This is like the beginning of the end if you keep dressing like this." 我说：“如果你继续这么穿，那简直要命了”
He started to trick me out in leather jackets and handcuffs. 他开始引诱我穿上皮夹克，戴上手铐
He started to get not me, at all, 他开始让我变得根本不像是我
and more him, 更像是他
and he wanted me to go--always to go further. 而且他总想让我突破下限
And I thought, "That's not gonna happen. I'm a model." 然后我想：“这不可能，我是一名模特”
随着他们关系淡去， 克劳兰被著名的馆长及收藏家萨姆·瓦格斯塔夫追求
Sam Wagstaff, I only knew that he was eccentric, handsome, 萨姆·瓦格斯塔夫，我只知道他有些古怪，十分帅气
and then when he took me to this loft later that day, rich. 当他那天晚些时候带我去阁楼的时候，我就知道他很有钱
But right before we went to his loft on Bond Street, 但在我们去邦德街他的阁楼之前
he spied a little, tiny picture of Robert 他看到了罗伯特的一张小小的照片
taken in a photo booth with a little sailor cap on. 戴着一顶小水手帽在一个照相室里拍的
It looked like a Jean Genet drawing. 看上去就像是让•热内的画一样
And he said, "Who is this?" 然后他问：“这是谁？”
I said, "That's my soon-to-be ex-boyfriend." 我说：“马上就是我的前男友了”
So I called Robert up and I said, "Listen. 于是我打电话给罗伯特，说：“听着”
"Your ship's come in, it's in my harbor. “你的船进港了，在我的港口”
"You're gonna jump on this boat. “你要跳上这艘船”
You're gonna love him, he's gonna love you, I can tell." “你会爱他，他会爱你，我可以看出来”
They had a date that week, 他们那周就约会了一次
and they fell in love very quickly. 很快就坠入爱河
Sam was his protector, in every way. 萨姆在所有方面保护着他
You know, in the way that girls are protected by men. 就跟男人保护女人一样
It was a beautiful match. 这是非常登对的一对
Beautiful. Really beautiful. 非常登对
梅普勒索普： 我遇见萨姆时，我觉得他很吸引人
他还碰巧拥有
一大笔钱
我和他相爱了，当然还有他的钱
如果他没有钱，我可能不会跟他交往
你不能将其分开
萨姆很棒的一点是他知道
那是整件事情的一部分
I knew other people who had older guys who supported them and stuff like that, 我认识其他人，有更为年长的人资助着他们这类事情
but Sam devoted himself. 但是萨姆全心全意奉献着
The career Robert had, 罗伯特所成就的事业
I don't believe would've existed without Sam. 我不相信能离得了萨姆的功劳
数月内，瓦格斯塔夫给梅普勒索普买了一台哈苏相机， 以及邦德街上的一套阁楼
I met him when he moved next to us on Bond Street, 我是在他搬到邦德街我们隔壁时认识他的
so he was literally the boy next door, 他真的是所谓的“邻家男孩”了
and we just instantly became friends. 我们立刻就成了朋友
It's this little cobblestone street in New York. 这是纽约的一条鹅卵石小街
Robert lived at 24 Bond Street, 罗伯特住在邦德街24号
and Brice and Helen Marden lived at 26 Bond Street, 布莱斯和海伦·马登住在邦德街26号
and I lived at 42 Bond Street. 我住在邦德街42号
And the '70s in New York was very different than now. 70年代的纽约和现在有很大不同
New York was bankrupt, 纽约当时经济不景气
things were pretty corrupt and violent. 非常腐败和暴力
There was a lot of crime, 犯罪率很高
and, you know, Bond and Bowery was in the middle of, 而且，你知道，邦德街和鲍威尔街上
you know, people sleeping in the doorways 全是流浪汉
and lying on the streets, 他们无家可归
but it was the art world. 但这是艺术的世界
When we first moved here, I was hysterical. 当我们刚搬到这里的时候，我简直歇斯底里
I said, "We've just spent 40,000 bucks on this dump. 我说：“我们刚刚在这个垃圾场花了4万美元”
"And look at this area. Look at this." “瞧瞧这个地方，瞧瞧这个”
I mean, it's, like, miles before you can get 我是说，你要走好几英里
to a restaurant, a grocery store, 才能找到一家餐馆或是杂货店
you know, a light at night, the place is dark. 或者是一盏路灯，这地方简直太黑了
You had this beautiful, free-flowing stream, 如果你门口有一条美丽灵动的小河
then there'd be all the soapsuds and garbage. 最后里面肯定全是肥皂水和垃圾
You see, that's the way Bond Street was. 知道了吧，邦德街当时就是这个样子
And now, of course, the last time I tracked it, 当然啦，如今，我上次查看的时候
the penthouse in that building, I think, sold for 19 million. 我想那栋楼的顶楼卖价是1900万
I never thought we'd have any money. Did you? 我从没想过我们会有钱，你呢？
No, it wasn't--it wasn't the intention. 没有，我没这么想过
I mean, it wasn't as though it was just a band of innocents, you know. 我的意思是，来纽约的人目的很单纯
You came to New York because you felt you had to be in New York, 来纽约是因为非来不可
you know, or else you would have just gone to some place that was nice to live. 否则就会去更舒适的地方居住了
He loved coming over 他喜欢过来
and taking photographs of my bats. 给我养的蝙蝠拍照
You know, he wasn't Robert Mapplethorpe in the beginning. 最开始，他还不是我们现在认识的罗伯特·梅普勒索普
You know, there was no thought that this was Robert Mapplethorpe, right? 当时不会想到他后来的成就，对吧？
Right, Brice? 对吧，布莱斯？ Right, yeah. 对的
Nothing, you know. We were just all doing our work and chatting about it. 当时完全想不到，我们只是在做我们的工作，相互聊天
We'd go to these funny little used book stores 我们会去这些有趣的小二手书店
and they'd have, like, cardboard boxes filled with old postcards 他们会用纸板箱装上旧明信片
and filled with old photo prints, 以及旧照片
and Robert would go through them and he'd find, you know, 罗伯特会翻阅那些旧照片，找出
a Weston or a Steichen or something. 一张爱德华·韦斯顿或是爱德华·史泰钦的摄影作品，或者其他什么
And it was like no one knew what it was, and it was like $5 or $10, 其他人都不知道那是什么，每张售价5刀或10刀
and he would do that much more once he got together with Sam. 和萨姆一起的时候，他买得更多
梅普勒索普： See, what happened is I started collecting photography, 我开始收集摄影作品
so I studied it through holding these pictures in my hand, 拿在手上看这些照片时我研究它们
which is probably the best way to study photography. 这可能是学习摄影的最佳方式
Robert and I liked to lie on his bed and look at all the photographs Sam bought, 罗伯特和我喜欢躺在床上看萨姆买的所有照片
and then he would tell me how much they were worth and we would laugh. 然后他会告诉我它们值多少钱，我们就笑个不停
萨姆·瓦格斯塔夫：Never having really looked at photographs as art, 我从来没有真正把摄影当作艺术
it really took Robert to bring me to photography. 罗伯特花了很大力气让我了解摄影
苏富比通俗艺术拍卖会 1973年10月
What are you up to? 最近在干嘛？
I've been working. 一直在工作
You should see some of Robert's works. 你真应该看看罗伯特的作品
I'll be getting down after the sale. 拍卖之后我会去的
There was something about the quality 即便是那些宝丽来照片的成色
of even the Polaroids, which startled me. 也让我大吃一惊
Something very knife-sharp about his work. 他的作品太犀利了
I think this is the most intimate thing we have in the archive 我认为这是档案室里萨姆和罗伯特之间
between Sam and Robert. 最亲密的作品了 Mm-hmm. 嗯嗯
Robert doesn't write, 罗伯特不是一名作家
so in a way, this linen album is his love letter to Sam. 所以在某种程度上，这张亚麻作品集是他写给萨姆的情书
You can see the dialogue that's going on between them 你可以从中看到他们之间的绵绵情话
about photography, and love and all that sexuality. 有关摄影，有关感情，有关性爱
Yeah. 是的
瓦格斯塔夫： I used to be slightly embarrassed 罗伯特拍的某些照片
by certain photographs that Robert took. 曾让我有点尴尬
He helped me get over that. 他帮我克服这种感觉
梅普勒索普： 我觉得萨姆变得更有安全感了
在遇见我之前，他一直对身为同性恋者十分紧张
我觉得我带给萨姆的是
帮助他找到自我
Robert, has always liked to play on the edge of pornography. 罗伯特一向喜欢在色情的边缘试探
梅普勒索普： I always was fascinated with the idea 我向来对性这样的
of taking a loaded subject like sexuality 主题感兴趣
and somehow bringing it to a level that it hadn't been to before. 将其拔到一个新的高度
瓦格斯塔夫： He's absolutely wedded to truth 他完全信奉真理
and opens it up in front of his camera in an almost surgical way. 在他的镜头面前，像手术般将事情剖析开
梅普勒索普： And I remember somebody saying, 我记得有人对我说：
"You know, you really shouldn't do that because it's gonna fuck up your career." “你真不应该这样做，这会毁了你的前途”
And I said I thought it was stupid for him to even think that way. 然后我说我觉得他这么想很蠢
I was convinced that what I was doing was the right thing to be doing. 我坚信我做的是正确的
梅普勒索普的朋友彼得·柏林是一位色情明星， 拍摄了一些精美的自拍照，梅普勒索普受其影响
柏林： I met Robert in the early '70s on Fire Island, 70年代早期，我在火烧岛（著名同志度假地）遇见了罗伯特
where his friend, Wagstaff, was renting a beautiful house 他朋友，瓦格斯塔夫租了一件漂亮的房子
and they invited me to stay. 他们邀请我过去
The '70s was a sexual time, 70年代是性爱的年代
and Fire Island, we went for sex, 在火烧岛，我们疯狂做爱
for that beautiful availability of sexual encounters. 在这里找到性伙伴太容易了
I mean, the drugs were floating around. 我是说，毒品到处都是
It was heaven. 简直就是人间天堂
Whenever we went out, I was recognized, right? 在外我经常被认出来
And people stopped me and Robert liked that, 人们会拦下我，罗伯特喜欢这样
and he was craving for fame and he enjoyed to be seen with me, 他当时非常渴求名誉，十分享受被看见和我一起
but he was sort of feeling he should be the one who should be recognized. 但他有种他才应该被认出来的感觉
And so I agreed, as a friend, to pose for him. 所以作为朋友，我答应给他照相
Then when the weekend was over, 周末结束后
Robert went back to New York City to work on his career. 罗伯特回到纽约继续他的事业
For me, the ambition was to get laid. 对我来说，雄心壮志就是做爱
Robert's ambition was to be a great photographer and that's why he is, 罗伯特的雄心壮志是成为一名伟大的摄影家，这正是他成功的原因
because in order to be a Mapplethorpe, you had to work hard. 因为为了出人头地，你得加倍努力
杰克·弗里切尔： He walked into my office at "Drummer," 他走进我在《鼓手》的办公室
a major gay magazine where I was the editor, 《鼓手》是同志群体的主流杂志，我在那当编辑
wearing leather chaps and a leather jacket, 他穿着皮套裤和皮夹克
carrying a black leather portfolio, 带着一个黑色的公文包
and said, "Hello, I'm Robert Mapplethorpe, 说：“你好，我叫罗伯特·梅普勒索普”
the pornographic photographer." “一名色情摄影师”
Well, everybody that came to my desk 这个嘛，来找我的
was a pornographic photographer. 都是色情摄影师
The problem in the '70s was everybody was having sex. 问题是70年代所有人都在疯狂做爱
Photographers weren't shooting, 摄影师没有在拍照片
painters weren't painting, writers weren't writing, 画家没有在画画，作家没有在写作
but Robert was functioning. 但是罗伯特在干活
And we ended up in bed, then we became 我们最终上了床，在未来三年中
bicoastal lovers for the next three years. 成为了恋人
He knew that he needed to be written about, 他清楚自己需要被报道
which is one of the reasons he came to "Drummer." 这是他来到《鼓手》的原因之一
梅普勒索普：我认为人生就是要利用别人
以及被别人利用
这就是人际关系的全部意义
I was just one of many writers that he approached. 我只是他接近的许多作家之一
I mean, nearly all of his friends were writers. 我是说，他几乎所有的朋友都是作家
He wanted to be a legend. 他想要成为传奇
He told me he wanted to be a story told in beds at night around the world. 他告诉我他想成为一个全世界家喻户晓的传奇
He had that kind of drive, 他拥有那种内在驱动力
and in a way, that's part of what makes geniuses, 在某种程度上，这就是天才的部分原因
this self-centeredness and this ability to use people. 这种以自我为中心的精神和利用他人的能力
So I was someone who could help Robert. 所以我帮助了罗伯特
I had that power of being editor of "Interview," 我是《会谈》杂志的编辑
but I don't think we used him that much 但当时我们没有任用他
because I was aware that Andy didn't like him. 因为我知道安迪不喜欢他
He always just said, "Oh, he's so dirty-looking," 安迪总说：“哦，他看起来很下流”
and, you know, "He's so creepy," “他真是个怪胎”
and Andy didn't like anybody who took Polaroids. 安迪不喜欢任何拍宝丽来相片的人
He thought he sort of was the only person who should be taking Polaroids. 他认为他自己是唯一应该拍宝丽来相片的人
But once Andy realized that Robert was with Sam Wagstaff, he started to like him. 但当安迪意识到罗伯特和萨姆·瓦格斯塔夫在一起时，他就开始喜欢他了
So it was okay for me to then use him for "Interview," 所以我就可以任用他给《会谈》拍照了
and we sent him to Mustique. 我们派他去了马斯蒂克岛
1976年，加勒比马斯蒂克岛是欧洲贵族和皇室的专属游乐场
卡罗琳娜·海莱拉（时装设计师）： We met Robert, my husband and I, on our way to Mustique, 我丈夫和我在去岛上途中遇到了罗伯特
in a private little plane. 在一个小型私人飞机上
I haven't heard of him at all, 我之前从来没有听说过他
but I was fascinated by his mind, 但我被他的思想迷住了
and on top of that, he was so good-looking. 而且他长得很好看
He said, at one point, "I want to photograph you." 某个时候他说：“我想给你拍照”
And I said, "No way." 我说：“没门儿”
And he said, "You know what? 然后他说：“你知道吗？”
"You might regret it later, “你会后悔的”
"because I'm going to be a fantastic and great photographer, “因为我将成为一名出色的摄影师”
and you're not going to have a photograph taken by me." “那时候你就别想让我给你拍照了”
He was a big hit with the aristocracy, 他在那些贵族中混得很好
and he loved Mustique and then Mustique loved him. 他喜欢马斯蒂克岛，在那里如鱼得水
梅普勒索普： 我立马进入了正确的圈子
受到了很多认同和赞扬
在巴黎和伦敦名噪一时
就这样发生了
He was living this double kind of life 他过着一种双重生活
where he would be uptown at a fancy dinner... 他会去城里参加一场名贵晚宴 Mm-hmm. 嗯哼
...and then he would go to the Mine Shaft. …接着他会到矿井里去
It looks well-worn. 看上去很破旧
Can you imagine it? 你能想象吗？ It's not just a souvenir. 这个不仅仅是一个纪念品 Back pocket. 后袋上的标签
Well, that was one of the key places he went to find his models, The Mine Shaft. 矿井是他去找模特的主要地方之一
What went on in the Mine Shaft for all those years 这些年来，在矿井里的两层楼
was two floors of the most outrageous sex 充满着骇人的性爱场景
had this side of Ancient Rome. 有着古罗马残暴的一面
All kinds of S&M sex, 各种受虐施虐的性爱
scatological sex, fetish sex, 怪癖性爱，恋物性爱
from the sling, to the stocks, to the whipping post. 从吊带到手足枷，再到鞭子，应有尽有
People talked of a famous bathtub, I mean, there was always somebody in it, 人们谈论一个著名的浴缸，里面总是有人
and a ring of men around it, one, two, three layers deep, 周围有一圈人，一层，两层，三层
everybody jerking off, touching each other, moving. 每个人都在打飞机，互相抚摸，移动着
It's just like a scrum around that bathtub. 就像浴缸周围的灌木丛
And then the ones in the first line would piss all over whoever was in the bathtub. 然后第一排的人就会尿到浴缸里的所有人身上
梅普勒索普： The work dealing with sexuality 主题为性爱的作品
is very directly related to my own experiences. 与我自身经历直接相关
It was an area that hadn't been explored in contemporary art, 这是当代艺术没有探索过的领域
and so it was an area that interested me in terms of making my statement. 所以从发表宣言的角度来讲很让我感兴趣，
I was in the perfect situation in that most of the people in those photographs 我的状态很完美，那些照片里的大多数人
were friends of mine, and they trusted me. 都是我的朋友，他们信赖我
And I felt like it was an obligation to record those things. 我觉得记录这些东西是一种义务
罗伯特·谢尔曼（演员）： Robert and I first met...at The Mine Shaft. 罗伯特和我首次遇见…是在矿井里
He comes over and I'm like, "Oh, here it goes. 他过来了，我想：“哦，开始了”
"We're gonna have an orgy “我们要放纵一番”
or go down in the basement." “或者去地下室（做一些不可描述的事情）”
He was very good-looking, 他非常英俊
you know, all in black leather. It was like--it was hot. 全身都是黑色皮衣，太性感了
He said, "Let's get out of here," 他说对我：“我们离开这里吧”
and we went home, did a bit of coke, had some sex. 我们回到家，吸了点可卡因，做了爱
Very, very, vanilla sex. 非常，非常，普通的性爱
He looked bored out of his mind. 他看起来很无聊
And we were up in to two hours. 两小时后我们就起床了
Just as I was nodding off, get up to do the first shoot. 就在我打盹的时候，站起来拍第一张照片
We did it like 6:30, 7:00 in the morning. 我们在早上6:30或者7:00左右拍的这些照片
He said he liked the light coming in the window. 他说他喜欢光从窗户倾泻进来
梅普勒索普： It becomes a documentary in a sense, 从某种意义上说，我的摄影变成记录性的了
though, I'd like to see it more as an autobiography. 不过，我更愿意把它看作一本自传
You know, it's what I'm involved with at any given moment. 记录了各个时间点我所参与的事情
Leave that open. 让它开着
I did this in a shop window. 我在商店橱窗里拍了这张照片
没有美术馆展示梅普勒索普的作品， 他经常带人到他的阁楼去看他的作品
This is Hockney, and this is a young film directress from LA. 这位是霍克尼，这位是一名洛杉矶的年轻电影导演
I remember this one time we were at his studio 我记得这一次我们在他的工作室
and he said, "Do you wanna see my private stuff?" 然后他说：“你们想看我的私人照片吗？”
At that point, all of his stuff was very taboo. 当时他的所有东西都是非常禁忌的
None of this stuff was out in public when he was showing it to us. 他给我们看的时候，这些东西都没有公开展示过
It wasn't. It wasn't. 没有过 Yeah. 对
Robert lived not too far east of my apartment, 罗伯特住在我公寓不远的东边
so I just walked there. 我就直接走了过去
卡罗尔·斯奎尔斯是一位为火烧岛浪潮 受命采访梅普勒索普的年轻艺术评论家
I remember, as I got closer and closer, 我记得，当我越来越近的时候
that I felt increasingly more frightened. 我感觉越来越害怕
I was a bit anxious, and I look up 我有一点不安，抬起头
and there's Robert up on the fire escape, smoking a cigarette, 罗伯特站在消防通道上，抽着烟
爱德华·梅普勒索普当时在学习摄影，正在撰写一篇有关他哥哥的论文 and there's Robert up on the fire escape, smoking a cigarette, 罗伯特站在消防通道上，抽着烟
and I was like, "Okay, here we go." 我就想：“好的，我们开始吧”
A hand-operated elevator. 那里有一台手动电梯
Five flights. 他住在五楼
Very low lit. Devil figures. 黑黢黢的，像恶魔一般的形状
Mysterious. It's creepy. 十分神秘，令人毛骨悚然
The first thing that struck me about him, 我对他的第一印象是
he was not at all, you know, the kind of person 他根本不是那种人们认为的
that one might think might make these kind of photographs. 能拍出这种照片的人
Yeah. Well, this... 额，这个… 梅普勒索普： This will pick up? 这会起作用吗？
Yeah, this will pick up better. 是的，这样会更好
Okay. Now... 好了，现在…
He said, "oh, is that a Sony?" 他问：“噢，那是索尼的吗？”
And I said, "No, it's not," and he said, 我说：“不是”，然后他说：
"Oh, Panasonic. Well, Sony is better." “哦，松下，好吧，索尼更好”
And, you know, teased me about having the wrong tape recorder. 然后取笑我用了错误的录音机
他给访客展示的13张照片，后来成为了X组合系列 In his early work, Mapplethorpe signed with an X, 在早期的工作中，梅普勒索普会签上一个X符号
so there's a kind of double entendre here. 有一种双关语的意味
Each portfolio, there's 13 gelatin sliver prints mounted on black board 每张作品都有13张明胶条子印在黑板上
and signed in graphite. 用石墨铅笔签名
梅普勒索普： Sex is, for me, 性爱对我来说
probably the most important thing in life. 可能是生命中最重要的事
You know, it's the one area that offers a bit of magic, 你知道，这是一个有点魔力
a bit of something we don't know about. 有点未知的领域
Just seeing how his little brother reacted, 看到他弟弟的反应
he just-- he dug it. 他很享受
He loved to get a jolt out of people and a reaction 他喜欢引起人们的震惊和反应
because it was power. They were powerful. 因为那些照片很有震撼人心的力量
梅普勒索普： I think sexuality, like I portray it, 我认为性爱就像我描绘的那样
is very much today, but people, you know, 在如今性爱非常重要，但人们…
it would take a few years before people realize that. 人们要用好几年才能意识到这一点
And you don't think that you're just existing 你不认为你只是存在于
in a specialized kind of subculture? 一种特别的亚文化中吗？
New York is specialized. 纽约就是个特别的地方
but what happens in New York is indicative of America finally. 但在纽约发生的一切最终预示着美国的走向
If I was gonna pick an image that I thought was humorous, 如果我要挑选一个我认为很好笑的形象
I would pick the man in the rubber suit with a hose coming out of his mouth. 我会选那个穿胶衣的人，从他嘴里冒出一根软管
梅普勒索普： 有一天我接到一个电话 对方说：“你好，我是乔” （然后我们就拍了这套照片）
这管子是和灌肠袋相连的
That's really disgusting. 真的很恶心诶
为了拍摄，他专门带了那套橡胶衣服过来
在工作室，我把它挂了起来，以免弄乱了
I had grown up with abstract art, and conceptualism, 我是在抽象艺术和概念主义的熏陶下长大的
and, you know, nude men in rubber suits 穿橡胶衣的裸男
were not part of my art education. 艺术课堂上不会教这种东西
So it was hard to know how to talk about them. 所以很难去谈论他们
梅普勒索普： Yeah, I was always amazed that it shocked. 是的，我总是很惊讶我的照片会有那么大的震撼力
I mean, because once I had a photograph and I had taken it, 我是说，因为当我拍了这个照片之后
it didn't-- it wasn't shocking to me anymore. 它就不会那么震撼我了
I'd been through the experience. 因为我已经经历过这种事了
Just watching me. 看看我吧
Even though I was perhaps being tested that day, 即使那天我可能被考验了
I wasn't going to fail. 我也没想过失败
And then I was, like, "You know, this is cool. 我当时说：“这个太酷了”
This is cool." “太酷了”
梅普勒索普： Maybe they're the best 这些照片可能是
or the most important pictures I've taken. 我的代表作里最出色的一批
When one sees something you've never seen before, it's rather important. 如果这作品让人耳目一新，那它就相当重要
I mean, still, I can show those to people 我是说，即使在现在我把这些照片拿给人看
and they will have never seen that image before. 他们都还会觉得耳目一新
So it opens something up, 所以这照片开创了新的东西
and I think that's what art is about, is opening something up. 我认为这就是艺术的意义，去开创新的东西
A couple of times, he's like, "So what do you think Dad would say about that one?" 好几次，他都问我：“你觉得爸爸会怎么看这张照片？”
There are two that particularly, 有两张照片尤其
you know, took my breath away. 让我惊叹不已
One was the pinky inserted into a penis. 一个是小指插入阴茎的那张照片
That was like, "Oh, my God." 我当时在想：“我的天呐！”
And the other one was the fist. 另一个是那个拳交的画面
Okay, Robert. 罗伯特，你赢了
I guess you've definitely found your voice. 你表明了你的态度
梅普勒索普： I wanted to do a great fist fucking photograph, 我想要拍一幅超棒的拳交摄影
so I did that picture, 所以我拍了那张照片
and then he said, "Now, it's your turn." 然后那人就说：“该你了”
So he sort of pinned me against the wall and says, "Listen..." 他几乎是把我按在墙上说：“听着…”
Anyway, once I had the picture taken, 不管怎样，我拍了那张照片之后
I thought it was a really good picture of me. 我觉得这还是张挺好的照片
But most people would say that that image was horrible. 但大多数人都会说那张照片太可怕了
Image of yourself. But once they-- 设想一下你自己，但一旦他们——
It's a good one. 那是张挺好的照片
Robert, he said "I can't have you go home without giving Mom and Dad something." 罗伯特，他说：“我不能让你不给爸爸妈妈带一些东西就回家”
So he just went... 所以他就去…
and signed it, "For Mom and Dad." 然后签上：“献给爸爸妈妈”
It was certainly better than anything else they he had up on the wall. Sorry. 这肯定比他在墙上挂的其他任何东西都更容易接受，抱歉
It was an "Easter Lilies" print. 那是张《复活节百合》照片
Are you proud of your son? 你对你儿子感到骄傲吗？
For the artwork he did, yes. 对于他创造的艺术品来说，是的
But for some of the photographs that he took, 但他拍的某些照片
I just could not accept them either. 我也不能接受
He's done a beautiful job on flowers. 他拍花拍得很好看
There was tension. There was no doubt about it. 家里关系有些紧张，这是毫无疑问的
One time in particular being very, very uncomfortable 有一次特别特别别扭
because my father wouldn't look at Robert. 因为我爸都不看罗伯特一眼
My father was an electrical engineer. 我父亲是一名电气工程师
He wore one of those penholders. 会在口袋里放一个笔袋
Robert would make his attempts. 罗伯特会尝试去缓和关系
He came with a Polaroid camera one time 他有次带了个宝丽来相机过来
and gave the camera to my father to--he did a Polaroid of Robert. 交给爸爸让他给罗伯特拍了张照
After he left, my father making mention 他离开后，爸爸提到
of how Robert shook people's hands. 罗伯特与别人握手的方式
It wasn't a manly handshake. 不是男子气概的握手
It was a soft-set handshake. 而是一种温柔的握手
Let me say this, 这么说吧
that I thought he was, for quite a length of time, 很长一段时间以来，我都觉得他是同性恋
but I would never even mention it to my wife. 但我从来没有向我妻子提起过
Because as far as my wife is concerned, 因为就我妻子而言
he was her favorite. 他是她的最爱
He and Patti told my parents they were married. 他和帕蒂告诉父母他们结婚了
I remember sending her birthday cards. 我记得给她寄过生日卡片
Patti, whatever, Mrs. Robert Mapplethorpe. 上面写着：帕蒂，梅普勒索普夫人
You know? 知道吗？
I think my father always had suspicions though. 我觉得我父亲一直怀疑这事
He said, "There's no pictures, there's no, you know, there's no certificate." 他总说：“没有结婚照，没有结婚证明”
Did you resent the fact that he was gay? 你对他是同性恋的事实感到不满吗？
I did, yes. 是的
I guess I did, yeah. 我想是的
He never spoke to me about it. 他从来没跟我谈过这回事
Because I guess he knew I would never accept it. 因为我觉得他知道我不会接受
Admitting that he was gay or telling me that he's gay, 承认他是同性恋或者告诉我他是同性恋
that wouldn't have helped matters at all. 根本也不会有什么帮助
Because I probably would've had more resentment 因为如果他告诉了我
to that fact if he had told me. 或许我会更加不满
So he was really not part of the family, 所以他其实不能算这个家庭的一员
you know, and it's sad. 很让人难过
It's sad. I so wish, 但无可奈何，我太希望
I could talk to him now about it all, you know? 我现在可以跟他谈谈
But Robert did-- Robert always wanted to be famous 但是罗伯特一向想要名扬四海
and he became famous. 他的确做到了
"Dear Lloyd, I finally have a gallery in New York. “亲爱的劳埃德，我终于在纽约找到一个画廊”
"It's run by a woman named Holly Solomon, “它是由一个叫霍莉·所罗门的女人经营的”
"You probably have never heard of it, “你大概从来没有听说过”
but it doesn't seem to be a bad place to be for the moment." “就目前而言，这地方似乎还不错”
霍莉·所罗门： I said, "Before I show your work, 我跟他说：“展览你的作品之前”
I would like you to do my portrait." “你得给我拍照”
And when he took my portrait, 当他给我拍了照
I was convinced that he was an artist, 我确信他是一个艺术家
convinced that he could manipulate people extremely well. 确信他能很好地操纵别人
And I use the word manipulate. 我用了“操纵”这个词
And so I said "Okay, let's do a show." 于是我说：“好吧，我们办场展览吧”
"Sam Wagstaff was a great photography collector." Holly Solomon said, “萨姆·瓦格斯塔夫是一位杰出的摄影收藏家”霍莉·所罗门说
"I wouldn't have touched Robert without Sam. “要不是萨姆我不会和罗伯特合作”
"And there were others like me who felt the same way." “其他人也这么想”
所罗门不肯展览梅普勒索普虐恋主题的作品， 因此梅普勒索普和瓦格斯塔夫在另一家展览馆组织了另一场展览
He had two shows in one day. 一天之内他有两场展览
One was the S&M pictures, 一个是虐恋主题的照片
and then one where the pictures, for, you know, the uptown trade. 另一个是迎合上流人士口味的照片
And then there was a dinner that Sam gave, a black-tie dinner at One Fifth Avenue. 然后萨姆在第五大道上举行了一次正式晚宴
It was very carefully thought out. It was like an ad campaign, 这场晚宴是经过精心筹划的，就像广告宣传一样
and it worked. 结果卓有成效
梅普勒索普： Sometimes, I think it's better 有时候，我觉得公众能
for the public to be able to separate things 把事情分开看待更好
because when you mix them all up, the sex thing overpowers it, 因为如果你把我的全部照片混为一谈，性爱的主题就会喧宾夺主
and what happens is they just pick the sex pictures out and that becomes the show. 他们就只会关注那些性爱照片，这就成为整个展览的噱头了
What will you say to those people 你会对那些指控你
who accuse you of having a dirty mind? 思想肮脏的人说些什么？
Well, I don't know what--I don't know what that means exactly. 好吧，我不知道——我不知道那到底是什么意思
I mean, I think everybody is, in one way or another, involved in sexuality. 我是说，我觉得每个人，多多少少，都会接触到性爱
So, if you believe that sex is dirty, 所以，如果你认为性爱是肮脏的
everybody has a dirty mind, I suppose. 那我想每个人的思想都是肮脏的
But I never consider sex being dirty. 但是我从来不认为性爱是肮脏的
The image that particularly riveted me, 特别吸引我的一张照片
was Mark Stevens (Mr. 10 1/2), 是马克·史蒂文斯（10.5英寸先生）
with his penis and balls laid out on the pedestal 把他的阴茎和蛋蛋放在底座上的那张
as if they were a work of art, which, in his case, they were. 就好像他的阴茎和蛋蛋是一件艺术品一样，在梅普勒索普看来，的确是
So... 所以…
Artistic photography is controlled 摄影艺术是由纽约市
by very civilized people in New York City. 非常文明的人掌控的
And in essence, he was glamorizing the penis, 实质上，他是在美化阴茎
which is a very uncivilized thing to do. 这反而是一种很不文明的行为
We sold one, only. 我们只卖出了一幅
So, I bought the whole show from Robert 所以我从罗伯特那里把整个展览买了下来
figuring "Okay, stuck is stuck." 想着：“好吧，倒霉就是倒霉”
梅普勒索普：她心很好
但我真的觉得她的品味很糟糕粗俗
所以当罗伯特·米勒回来的时候
我想要搬到富人区去
He said, "I want to go uptown," 他说：“我想去富人区”
and he brought me a present. 然后他给我带了件礼物
The present was a self-portrait with the whip up his... tush. 礼物是一幅自拍照，一条鞭子插在他的…屁眼里
And my husband, he was quite insulted, 我丈夫，他感觉被冒犯了
and he said, "I'm gonna rip it up," and I said, "No, you're not. 他说：“我要撕了它”，我说：“别，别撕”
Someday, I'm gonna get handsomely paid for that photograph." “总有一天我会凭着这幅照片赚大钱”
Is that making a statement about myself? 我是在宣扬我自己的个性吗？
You know, it's one aspect of everybody, I suppose, 我觉得每个人都有这样的一个侧面
you know, sort of the demon within. 内心的阴暗面
There's a sense of humor in what I'm doing, 我的作品里有一股幽默感
which I hope people pick up on, 我希望人们注意到
and sometimes they do, and I'm always pleased when people see that. 人们有时候会注意到，我总是很高兴他们看出来了
I don't think he could've produced the work he produced 如果他不是被一个天主教家庭抚养长大
if he hadn't been raised Catholic. 我认为他不会创作出现在的那些作品
梅普勒索普： I think the way I arrange things is very Catholic, 我认为我安排事物的方式非常具有天主色彩
even though I was never a religious person. 虽然我认为我从来不是一个虔诚的人
I think it's rather important as an influence on my life. 我觉得天主教对我的人生产生了很重要的影响
The imagery was what was important to him, 那些图像才是对他重要的东西
not the dogma. 而不是那些教条
There's something very ritualistic about sadomasochism. 虐恋文化中有一些非常仪式化的东西
It's, kind of, the Black Mass basically, right? 有种黑色弥撒的味道，是吧？
His S&M work is based on the Catholic martyrology. 他的虐恋主题作品是以天主教殉道的理念为基础的
As grade-school children, we hear tales 当我们还是小学生的时候，我们听过圣阿加莎被绑在一根木桩上
of St. Agatha tied to a stake and her tits torn off with a red hot pincher. 她的乳头被一只热得通红的钳子扯下来的故事
If you're a little kid and hear that, and twisted in a certain way, 如果你是个孩子，听到了这些，然后以另一种方式解读它
all of a sudden, you're excited and not horrified. 突然之间，这故事变得不可怕了，而是相当刺激
I'm really not, you know, into sadomasochism, you know? 我真的不喜欢施虐受虐
I don't encourage it with other people either. 我也不鼓励其他人这样做
But I really felt as though there was a struggle in Robert 但我真的觉得罗伯特
between crucifixes and devil images. 挣扎于善恶的选择
Good, evil, there is a great conflict there. 善，恶，两者是一个巨大的冲突
He liked the fact that I had been in the seminary for many years 他很高兴我在神学院待了很多年
and was an ordained exorcist in the Catholic Church. 并且是天主教会的一名驱魔员
And because I was trained to be a priest, he was very confessional to me. 因为我受过神父入职的训练，他对我很坦白
"Dear Jack, it's midnight. “亲爱的杰克，已经是午夜了”
"MDA ingested, only the first signs now visible. “我服用了MDA（一种苯丙胺类兴奋剂），已经有反应了”
"I've been out nearly every night. Tonight is no different. “我每晚都出来浪，今晚也一样”
"The Mine Shaft is beckoning. “矿井在向我招手”
"Come, go, come, go, come with me. “来吧，走，来吧，走，跟我来吧”
"Oh, I almost forgot to tell you, “噢，我差点忘了告诉你”
"I let some creep stick his hand up my ass. “我让一个奇葩把他的手伸进我的屁眼 ”
"I've been fisted, even came. “我被拳了，甚至觉得很爽”
"But I think I prefer being the giver. “但我觉得我更喜欢去拳别人”
"In fact, I can't help but give preferential treatment to the feeding process. “事实上，我不得不对把拳头伸进别人屁眼的过程给予优待”
"I want to see the devil in us all. “我想要看到我们每个人心中的魔鬼”
"That's my real turn-on. “这才是我的兴奋点”
Love, Robert." “爱你的，罗伯特”
I have to say that because nobody will say it. 没人肯这样说，所以我一定要说
I have to say it and it's not to put him down, 我必须说，不是因为要打压他
but it's simply to reveal. 而仅仅是揭示
Robert-- 罗伯特——
Satan to him was not this evil monster. 撒旦对他来说并不是邪恶的魔鬼
Satan was, like, a convivial playmate, 撒旦就像是一个欢乐的玩伴
having a jolly good time seducing the maidens. 对于引诱少女感到快乐
To me, it was a bridge too far. 对我来说，这实在有点过分了
Go away. 走远点
Can we close the doors? I'm getting awfully cold in here. 能关上门吗？我感觉很冷
Yeah. There's a draft--Marc? 对了，有幅草稿——马克呢？
马库斯·里热戴尔： San Francisco, 1978. 1978年，旧金山
Robert was having a show, it was a sex show. 罗伯特在办一场展览，是场性爱展
It was unusual. I mean, you didn't see sex as art in galleries. 不同寻常，我是说，你不会在展览馆中看到性爱艺术
And then someone said, "Well, you know, 然后有人说：“你知道吗”
"he did the album cover for 'Horses.'" “是他给《马匹》（帕蒂·史密斯首张专辑）拍了专辑封面”
And it was the only black and white album cover. 这是唯一的黑白专辑封面
And to see an androgynous-looking woman 而且封面上是个看上去不知是男是女的女人
with a jacket over her shoulder, 搭着件夹克衫在肩膀上
I just love, love, love that photograph. 我超级爱那张照片
Robert was holding court and he said, 罗伯特当时在他的摄影展上受到万人瞩目，然后他对我说：
"Well, let's have dinner the following night," “好吧，我们明天晚上一起吃晚饭吧”
and that's how I met him. 我就是这样认识他的
And then I guess you wanna know what happened the following night, right? 我猜你想知道第二天晚上发生了什么，对吧？
1978年，梅普勒索普邀请里热戴尔和他一起留在纽约 He reminded me of the satyr. 他让我想起萨蒂尔（古希腊神话中半人半兽的森林之神）
He really looked like a mythological creature, 他真的像一个神话里的生物
like half goat, half man. 就像半羊半人
To be in Robert's world, 要在罗伯特的世界里占有一席之地
you either had to be rich, famous, or sex. 你要么要有钱，要么要有名气，要么出卖色相
I wasn't rich, I wasn't famous, 我不有钱，也不有名
so, it left that. 那么只剩下一个了
里热戴尔成为了梅普勒索普的模特、经理及情人
As he certainly wasn't monogamous, 他绝对不是专一的那种人
he could have multiple relationships on a weekend. 他可以在一个周末和多人发生关系
But with me, there was no S&M. 但和我在一起的时候，我们没有玩虐恋
It was about being close 一切只是享受亲密感
and spooning and, you know, 接吻和爱抚
just the normal, the normal kind of intimate stuff 就只是正常的亲密行为
that he didn't have from picking up strangers. 这些都是他跟陌生人勾搭所没有的
He said, "I want to do a nude." 他说：“我想拍些人体摄影”
So I said, "Why don't we do something, like, you know, this--" 于是我说：“我们为什么不拍些，就像是，这个——”
those pictures of the hunt, you know, 那些狩猎的图画
where you have, like, the harvest with the dead rabbit 就像是，收获了死兔子
and the fruit and everything all and about. 水果还有其他东西
So, I thought it was gonna be more like that, 我以为会是那样子的
and then it turned up with--just this dead rabbit. 结果变成了——就只有那只死兔子
And I said, "What am I gonna do with this? Like a mink stole or something." 我说：“我该怎么办？就像偷貂皮之类的吗？”
I'm surprised you even know that picture, 我很惊讶你竟然知道那张照片
because you'll never see a picture of me in any book by Mapplethorpe. 因为我的照片不在梅普勒索普任何一本摄影集里
You really won't. 真的没有
The fact that I started getting a reputation 我逐渐在旧金山有了名气
aside from just being "Robert's cute with," from San Francisco, 不再仅仅是罗伯特可爱的随从
how dare I become a photographer that was well known? 我怎么能变成一名知名摄影师呢？
This infuriated him. 这让他很生气
He couldn't deal with that. 他不能接受
"I've had a houseguest here for much too long, “有个人在我家里住了太久了”
"a very cute boy that I met in San Francisco. “是我在旧金山遇见的一个很可爱的男孩子”
"He's sweet, intelligent, has a nice cock, “他很甜，也聪明，鸡巴漂亮”
"but that ain't enough. “但是还不够”
I wish he'd find an apartment as he's cramping my style." “我希望他能找到一间公寓，因为他在消磨我的风格”
That was probably me. 这写的可能是我
I mean--but I don't--never heard that. 我的意思是——我之前从没有听过这个
I mean, I don't know who else he met in San Francisco. 我不知道他在旧金山还遇见过谁
That was--that's the first time I'm hearing that. 这是我第一次听到这段话
Hmm. 哼
Well, it finally isn't enough, is it? I mean, what he wanted. 最终还是不够，对吧？我是说，他想要的
It's never enough. 永远都得不到满足
Everything was a means to an end to his career. 任何事情都会危及到他的事业
Everything. 任何事情
罗伯特的事业起步后，他雇了一名员工来管理他的工作室
Oh, my God. You guys are old school. I love that. 天哪，你们这群人太老派了，我喜欢
The Bond Street loft never changed. 邦德街上的阁楼就没变过
In the front, it was sort of no man's land, 没人会去前面的区域
and that was where he used to photograph a lot. 他经常在那里摄影
Then you move back and it's this little sitting area 后面是一片小休息区
which--where he would always hold court, 他总是在这里待客，成为万众焦点
but across from that was the bedroom. 对面是卧室
Painted black. 漆成黑色 Black. 黑色
Hot gloss. 是用那种热的亮光漆涂的
With the handcuff holds above the bed. 在他的床上挂有手铐
I never went in there. 我从来没进去过 Oh, I did. 噢，我去过
First thing he said to me is, "All you have to know is where the darkroom is." 他对我说的第一句话是：“你只需要知道暗室在哪”
You know? Okay, dude, whatever, you know. 知道吗？好吧，老弟，随你的便
Do your thing, I'll do mine. 你做你的，我做我的，就这个样子
And I remember the first image I printed, 我记得我印的第一张照片
which was just a nasty, dirty picture. 是一张污污的照片
It's a guy laying on his back, pulling on his nipples. 一个人躺着，在拉扯他的乳头
It's not a well-known picture, but it's a classic. 不是张很著名的照片，但很经典
And that was where we went to work every day. 我们每天就在这种地方工作
That's where we went. You know, "Off to work, here we go." 那就是我们工作的地方，你知道，“走咯，上班咯”
Little waspy blondes going to the den iniquity. 小黄蜂金发女郎去了罪恶之穴
Going to the fist-fucking file. 去了拳交堆
Wasn't it funny how soon we became anesthetized 好笑的是不久我们就麻木不仁了
to all the sex pictures? 对那些性爱照片 To the word penis? 对“阴茎”这个词
Yeah, you really...'Cause it was just daily. 你真…因为那只是日常工作了
There would always be film in the morning 每天早上都会有胶片送来
from the night before, 是前一天晚上拍好的
so the first thing I'd do is process film. 所以我首先是去处理胶片
He'd come in in his robe, 他会穿着袍子过来
"How are the films, Tom?" “汤姆，胶片怎么样了？”
When he saw the image for the very first time, 他第一次看到洗出来的图像时
he'd tease me, "What do you think of that cock, Tom?" 他会逗我玩：“汤姆，你觉得这个鸡巴怎么样？”
I'm like, "Get the fuck out of here." You know? 我就会说：“滚出去”
I was just out of school, looking for work, 我刚毕业，正在找工作
and Robert was, like, "I don't know how I really feel about this, 然后罗伯特说：“我不知道做何感想”
"but I am looking for an assistant." “但是我正在招聘助理”
And I started the next day. 我第二天就开始工作了
Because he didn't have a real photo background, 因为他没有摄影的专业背景
he was always insecure about "Technically did I get the picture?" 他总是对摄影的技术很不确定
You know, "Did it come out? Did it come out?" 总是说“拍到了吗？拍到了吗？”
If it had light on it, and he could get an exposure, he was happy, 如果上面有灯光，曝光成功了，他就很高兴
'cause, you know, they were all fucked up in the middle of the night. 因为，你知道，他们在半夜拍的照片很糟糕
梅普勒索普： I'm not a technician. I never studied photography. 我不是个技术人员，我从来没研究过摄影技术
I don't particularly care to know it. 我不太想知道那些技术
I know what a fine print is. 我只知道一张好的照片是什么样
I would probably have less than half the number of photographs 如果我自己去显影和洗印照片
if I did my own developing and printing. 那估计我成功拍出的照片数量会减半
But he always had coke. I was the only guy he gave coke to 他总是备有一些可卡因，我是他唯一给可卡因的人
'cause he wanted me to keep going. 因为他想让我继续干活
He wasn't generous, but, you know, 他不是很大度，但，你知道的
"If I gave Tom a little coke, he'll print faster," you know. “如果我给汤姆一点点可卡因，他冲印照片会更快一点”
"Here, Tom. Go in the darkroom," he'd give me a bump. “给，汤姆，去暗室“ 然后他会给我一包
You know, my father said to me, 爸爸总是对我说
"How can Robert call himself a photographer “如果罗伯特不会自己处理胶卷的话”
if he doesn't even know how to process a roll of film?" “他怎么能自称是一个摄影师？”
But Robert had a vision, 但是罗伯特眼光独特
he always had a certain way of seeing things, 他总是有特别的方式看待事物
so how you got there didn't really concern him so much. 所以他并不怎么关心完成照片的方式方法
He wanted everything to just be flawless. 他想要所有事情都完美无缺
You know, "Let's make this guy's arm meet this corner," 你知道，他会说“让这家伙的胳膊碰到这个角落”
and, you know, "Let's straighten it out a little bit." “让它伸直一点”
But it's a guy pissing in another guy's mouth. What's the fucking difference? 但那是一个人在别人嘴里撒尿，他妈的有什么区别？
He wanted things as, you know, unrealistically perfect 他想要事情不切实际地完美
and smooth and take all the flaws out of the skin. 把皮肤上的瑕疵都去掉
Some days we'd sit and just retouch for a day 有些天，我们会坐下来，修饰一整天
until all the blemishes were gone. 直到所有的瑕疵都消失了
梅普勒索普计划与缪斯帕蒂·史密斯出版一本书
梅普勒索普： I talked to Patti about doing a book 我跟帕蒂谈过出一本书的事情
and having her transform herself 让她把自己变成
into all these different characters that would have been Patti. 所有这些不同的形象
I mean, she would be this character one day 我是说，一天她可以是这样的形象
and that character another. 另一天可以是另一个形象
And I think, you know, she had a certain range 我觉得，她具有一定的可塑性
that could've probably carried a whole book, 没准可以支撑起一整本摄影集
but I never did a book with her. 但是我从来没能和她完成一本书
1980年，帕蒂·史密斯离开了纽约 她逐渐与梅普勒索普失去了联系 他的第一本书以一位新缪斯为模特，丽莎·里昂
When I met Lisa, I realized that she, in fact, had this range within her, 当我遇见丽莎时，我意识到她，实际上也有那种可塑性
a very different range, but it was still worthy of a book. 很不一样，但也值得拍一整本
I thought she was unique. 我认为她独一无二
丽莎·里昂是世界上首位女性健美冠军 She had this form that I had never seen before. 她有我以前从未见过的那种姿态
丽莎·里昂是世界上首位女性健美冠军 It was like a complete new animal. 前所未见的视觉动物
She was particularly important to Mapplethorpe 她对梅普勒索普而言尤其重要
because he was trying to balance out his sex pictures 因为他试图用女性的照片
with pictures of women. 去平衡他的性爱照片 Mm-hmm. 嗯哼
It's so interesting to think about 想一想当时女性的健身理念
how the female body building idea then was really radical 是多么的激进，
and, kind of, challenging. 并且有些挑战性，真是太有趣了
That kind of physique to us doesn't seem so shocking. 对现在的我们来说，这种体格似乎并不那么令人震惊 Right. 对
She's such a prominent subject. 她是个很突出的话题
Very '80s, the make-up, the hair. 很有80年代的风范，这个装扮，这个发型 Oh, yeah. 是的
The ruffle blouse. 这个褶边衬衫 Mm-hmm. 嗯哼
The shoulder pads. 这个垫肩
李昂： It was prototype for a new species. 这是一个新物种的原型
Sort of an animal perfection, and I felt in him 一种动物的完美，我在他身上感受到了
a kind of male version of the same thing. 一种同样的东西的男性版本
My ambition that I discussed with him 正如我跟他谈论的那样，我的愿景
was to explore the range of possibilities 是去探索看待女性
of ways of viewing a woman. 的各种可能性
Historical ways, contemporary ways, 历史的眼光，现代的眼光
cliché ways, unheard of ways, 一成不变的眼光，前所未有的眼光
tribal ways, the high fashion type, 女性可以是部落神话，可以是时尚女郎
the sex goddess type, the lingerie type, 可以是性感女神，可以是内衣尤物
the bondage type, the virgin type, 可以是捆绑女王，可以是窈窕处女
the bridal type, the statue type. 女性之美是新娘在婚礼时瞬放，亦是胴体如雕塑般永恒
What had seemed very daring 当他和女人做那些
when he did it with men... 之前和男人做过的那些事
...looked very retrograde when he did it with a woman 给穿戴着不同帽子和衣服的女人拍大胆的照片
who was dressing up in different hats and garments. 就很违逆世俗
And so I wrote about that and he was furious. 我写了一篇文章，他很生气
I think he called me and yelled at me. 我记得他给我打了电话，冲我大喊大叫
I feel, like, it may have been a bad idea to write that review. 我觉得写这篇评论可能是个坏主意
I mean, that is sculpture to me, 我是说，这对我来说就像是雕像
you know, and that's, sort of, one of the points that I'm making in photography 这是我在摄影中想要传达的理念之一
is being a sculptor without actually having to spend all the time, 也就是不花任何时间去雕刻而成为一名雕刻家
sort of, modeling with your hands. 有点像，用你的双手去塑造人体的形象
You know, that's much too archaic for me. 你知道，雕刻对我来说太古板了
It's like inventing sculpture myself with a camera. 而我就像是用摄像机来创造一座雕像
It really is like bronze. 就真像是青铜一样
I'd often say that photographing black men is like photographing bronzes. 我常常说拍摄黑人就像是拍摄青铜一样
I was the last white intimate person in his life. 我是他生命中最后一个亲近的白人
After that, he was only sleeping with black people, 之后他只和黑人睡觉了
photographing black people. 只拍摄黑人
He became obsessed with black people. 他迷上了黑人
梅普勒索普： All I know is that it's physically attractive to me. 我只知道黑人的身体对我有吸引力
Visually, it's also attractive 视觉上十分吸引人
and so, you know, it became an obsession with me taking these pictures of blacks. 所以，拍这些黑人的照片让我着迷
People had accused him of exploiting these people. 人们指责他剥削这些人
And, um... he told me 嗯…他告诉我
he photographed what he loved to do 他拍摄的是他想做的事情
and the people he loved to be with, 是他爱的人
and to me, that's not exploitation. 于我而言，这不算剥削
That's just living your life 这只是生活
and using a camera to document it. 用照相机记录生活
梅普勒索普： For the most part, when whites have photographed blacks, 在大多数情况下，当白人拍摄黑人时
they have, sort of, shown them from a certain social point of view. 白人有点像是在从某种社会的角度来展示黑人
I'm photographing them as form in the same way that I'm reading the flowers 而我拍他们时的眼光与拍摄花卉时无异
or anything else that I photograph. 与其他我拍摄的任何东西无异
I'm not attempting to make a social statement about their plight. 我不想对他们的困境发表社会声明
Robert was looking for God in a black man, 罗伯特在寻找一个“黑色上帝”
and he found him in Milton Moore 他在米尔顿·摩尔身上找到了
and fell in love with him. 他爱上了他
Now, I think he fell in love, 我认为他爱上了米尔顿的阴茎
and this sounds ridiculous, with Milton's penis. 听上去有点可笑
Robert was looking for the absolute perfect black penis. 罗伯特在寻找一个绝对完美的黑人阴茎
And he had it, 他找到了
I mean, the exact measurements down. 我是说，恰好是这个尺寸
I mean, it had to be just so and he'd discuss it with others, 必须得是这么大，他还会跟别人谈论它
and, you know, the ratio to this and that. 还有这个跟那个的比例
The thing the world is most afraid of is penis. 世界上最害怕的就是阴茎
And Robert dared show penis, 而罗伯特敢于展示阴茎
but he dared show black penis, 而且他敢于展示黑人的阴茎
and there's nothing more scary because behind all of sexual prejudice 没有什么比这更可怕的了，因为所有的性偏见背后
is the sex envy, this penis envy 都是性嫉妒，这种阴茎嫉妒
that drives people insane 让人疯狂
either with lust or with fear. 对此要么是性欲，要么是恐惧
Milton did say to him 弥尔顿确实有对他说
as one condition of taking the pictures 拍摄照片的一个条件是
that he could not show his head in the frame. 在画面中他不能露脸
梅普勒索普：米尔顿拥有难以置信的自然躯体
他的大腿太棒了
然后我想，不露脸的话我怎么拍摄这漂亮的躯体呢？
"Picture of Man in Polyester Suit" 《穿涤纶装的男人》
was really one of his most famous. 是他最著名的作品之一
Milton had picked up that suit in Hong Kong and was very proud of it, 米尔顿在香港买了那套衣服，为此感到非常自豪
and Robert purposely lined up his thumb 罗伯特故意让他竖起大拇指
so that it would show off the cheap seams. 这样就会露出廉价的接缝
1981年，《穿涤纶装的男人》在名叫“黑色男子”的摄影展中展览
霍华德·里德（展览馆馆主）： I'd never seen it, and then we went to the framers 我从来没见过这样的照片，我们到装裱工人那里去
and I saw it laying on the floor as it was gonna be put into the frame, 我看见照片躺在地上，马上要放进相框里
and I said, 然后我说：
"Robert, this is a show that the whole world will see." “罗伯特，全世界都会目睹这场展览”
He said to me, "Will anyone write about it?" 他对我说：“有人会报道吗？”
That was his comment. And they did. 这就是他说的话，然后记者的确报道了
《乡村之声》的评论（弗雷德·麦克达撰写）： "Main picture here is a big black dude “主要画面是一个穿着昂贵的华达呢西装的”
"seen in an expensive vested gabardine suit “大个子黑人”
"with his fly open and his elephant cock sticking out. “他的裤裆开着，巨大的鸡巴伸出来”
"This picture's ugly, degrading, obscene, “这张照片很丑陋，很下流，很淫秽”
"typical of the artist's work, “典型的这位艺术家的作品”
"which appeal largely to drooling lascivious collectors “主要吸引了垂涎三尺的淫荡收藏家”
"who buy them and return to their furnished rooms to jerk off." “买下来之后回到他们的收藏室里对着撸”
We actually did sell that picture during the exhibition 事实上，在展览期间，我们确实以2500美元的价格
to a collector in New York for $2,500, and it was a reach. 把这幅画卖给了纽约的一位收藏家
It was a big price for a photograph, 对于摄影作品来说是很高的价钱了
and especially by a living photographer. 尤其是一个在世摄影师的作品
There were 20 works in the show 展览中一共有20幅作品
and we placed all of them with very strong collectors, 我们为这些作品找到了非常厉害的收藏家
which was very important for Robert. 这对罗伯特而言非常重要
This was the first show that that had ever happened to him. 这是他人生中第一场摄影展
And it was a kind of lightning rod 就像是避雷针吸引闪电一般招致非议
and it was notorious. 落下了臭名昭著的名声
Lot 144, Robert Mapplethorpe's "Man in Polyester Suit." 第144号卖品，罗伯特·梅普勒索普的《穿涤纶装的男人》
And I'm gonna start the bidding here at $180,000. 18万美元起售
It's possibly one of the top10 most recognizable images in photographic history. 它可能是摄影史上最有辨识性的十张照片之一
210, 220. 21万，22万
It's an iconic image. 这是一个标志性的形象
You know, it's, like, Andy's "Marilyn." 就像是安迪·沃霍尔的《玛丽莲·梦露》
360, 380... 36万，38万…
$390,000. 39万美元，成交
《穿涤纶装的男人》被建筑师及收藏家彼得·马里诺买下， 他收藏有大量梅普勒索普的作品
马里诺： None of us realized that photography 我们都没有意识到
at its--the beginning was just considered 摄影在其诞生之初
commercial reproduction, commercial reproduction. 只是被视为商业宣传的工具
Many collectors would never dream of collecting. 许多收藏家从没想过收藏摄影作品
And I think Mapplethorpe is one of the artists responsible 现在摄影艺术被视为与雕像和绘画同等重要
for photography being considered on an equal basis with sculpture and painting. 我认为梅普勒索普对此做出了很大贡献
I never for a second doubted that photography was a very real art. 我从来没有怀疑过摄影是一门真正的艺术
And there's just something about his photography that immediately attracted me. 他的摄影之中有一点立即吸引到了我
I was shocked by his absolute brutal honesty about everything, 我被他对所有事情绝对残忍的诚实所震惊
from sexual organs to relationships between people. 从性器官到人际关系
梅普勒索普： You know, the people that have influenced me the most 对我影响最大的那些人
are the relationships I've had, you know, 是和我有过亲密关系的那些人
the lovers I've had in my life. 我生命中的那些情人
And of course I've photographed every one of them. 当然，他们都曾是我镜头下的模特
The only time Robert ever cried was talking about how much he loved Milton. 罗伯特唯一一次哭是在谈论他有多爱米尔顿
Not Patti, Milton. Milton. 不是帕蒂，是米尔顿
梅普勒索普：我被米尔顿伤透了心
我愿做任何事情和米尔顿重归于好
然而就是不行
杰克填补了这段空白
但杰克不曾拥有米尔顿那样完美的身体
He had just did that show called "Black Males" at Robert Miller Gallery. 他在罗伯特·米勒展览馆办了一场名为“黑色男子”的摄影展
So I went to go see that show. 所以我去看了
I said, "That's gonna be my boyfriend." 我说：“那是我男朋友”
杰克·沃尔斯是梅普勒索普最后一任长期伴侣 We lived together for the better part of a decade. 我们在一起生活了十年
We rarely fought, you know, 几乎没有争吵过
because he was too self-absorbed to really care. 因为他太只顾自己了，根本不在乎其他东西
It was so easy to be around him 在他身边其实很容易
because he was so busy being Robert Mapplethorpe. 因为他忙着做自己的事情
When we started seeing each other, he started taking pictures, right? 当我们开始约会时，他开始给我拍照
And I was, kind of, shy, so I didn't wanna take nude pictures. 我有点害羞，所以不想拍裸照
And Robert goes, "Just don't look at your dick." 罗伯特说：“别盯着你的老二就行了”
He goes, "It's just a picture." “只是一幅照片而已”
梅普勒索普最常拍摄的男性模特是肯·穆迪 肯·穆迪： There is no picture of Ken Moody's dick. 肯·穆迪没有露屌的照片
There just isn't, and I'm sorry. 就是没有，抱歉
As soon as I stood in front of the seamless, 当我站在幕布前时
it was magic. 感觉很奇妙
It was absolute magic. 奇妙纷呈
There's no way you can describe it other than making love. 就跟做爱的快感一样，我没有其它方式描述了
And as soon as we stepped away from that backdrop, nothing. 一旦我从摄影幕布前走下来，什么感觉都没有了
Absolutely nothing. 绝对没有
We had nothing in common, We had nothing to say to each other. 我们没有共同点，也没有什么可说的
There was a ghetto element to men that he had the strongest attraction to. 男人身上有一系列特点会吸引他
I had none of that. 我一个都没有
He was quoted in an article as saying I was too "white" for him. 他在一篇文章中说我对他来说太“白人”了
Too white. 太白人
梅普勒索普： I brought them together. 我将他俩组合在了一起
It was interesting 'cause they had never met and never had a conversation 有趣的是他俩从没有见过面或聊过天
with somebody else that they had lost all their hair as a child. 他们还是孩子的时候，就没有了头发
And it was interesting to watch them 看到他们的反应
react and relate to each other. 和相互联系是很有趣的
The more time goes by, 随着时间的推移
the bigger that photograph gets. 这张照片越来越显得意义重大
When it was in Times Square on the NASDAQ billboard, 当它在时代广场纳斯达克广告牌上出现时
that was, like, "Wow. Where's my mother?" 我在想：“哇哦，要是我妈妈还在就好了”
I've read several things on the shot of Ken and I. 我读过几篇关于肯和我的照片的报道和评论
It's like they tried to read all of this philosophy into it. 就好像他们试图把所有的哲学都解读进去一样
Black Ken, eyes closed, meaning the subconscious. 黑色的肯，闭着眼睛，象征着潜意识
White Robert, eyes open, afraid of the unconscious. 白色的罗伯特，睁大眼睛，害怕着无意识
I'm, like, "What?" 我在想：“搞毛啦？”
The black man was in the background 黑人在后面
because the black man's neck wasn't long enough 是因为黑人的脖子不够长
to reach over the white man's shoulder. 够不着前面白人的肩
We tried it and my neck wasn't long enough. 我们尝试过黑人在前，但我的脖子不够长
I think that's why he did every position. 我认为罗伯特照片中的每个姿势都是出于这样的原因
Exactly. 正解 To find out what worked best. 只是为了找到最可行的姿势
There was no philosophical anything to-- 没有什么哲学上的意味
Robert was so not like that. 罗伯特不喜欢那样
No. Totally not. 绝对的
Take your shirt off. 把上衣脱了
It sounds silly. I guess, you know, using the word, magic. 听起来很傻，用“魔力”这个词
And fold your arms. 抱起双臂
Stay right there. Lift your head up a little bit. 保持这个姿势，抬点头
I was able to pick up the magic of the moment and work with it, 我有能力去找出那些有魔力的时刻，并把它记录下来
you know, that's my rush in doing photography. 那是我做摄影的激情所在
Ken, hold that! Hold that! 肯，不要动！保持住！
Tilt a little right and turn a little right. 向右倾斜一点，再向右转一点
Turn your head to the right, now bring your eyes back to me. 头向右转，然后看着我
Look back here. 看过来
Lean right, turn right. 向右靠，向右转
Put your head down, now bring your eyes up. 把头低下，抬起眼睛
Click, click, click, click, click, eyes to me. 咔嚓，咔嚓，咔嚓，咔嚓，咔嚓，看着我
Click. Chin up. 咔嚓，抬起头来
Turn this way. 朝这边转
Turn your head this way. Yeah, more. 头朝这边转，再转点
More. More. 再转点，再转点
And instead of looking to the side, look straight out. 不要看一边，笔直看过来
Often I'm dealing with fractions of inches. 我经常是在处理几英寸的问题
Here, you can even--Now turn. 这里你可以——转一点
Just-- Yeah, from the neck. Stay there. 脖子那里，保持住
I'm looking for that perfect position 我在寻找一个完美的姿势
where the head sort of, somehow makes sense to me. 让头看上去不那么别扭
Actually, I should take it with all these things coming in at you. 事实上，我应该把这些对着你的东西一并拍下来
A little-- Look this way towards-- yeah. 朝这看一点
That's rather good, actually. 还挺好的
I'm gonna start showing a series of portraits. 我要开始展示一系列的肖像照
I'll stop at any point, but I don't want to comment too much about the pictures 我随时都会停下来，但我不想对这些照片评论太多
'cause I wanna get-- I want my vision to come across, 因为我想让这些照片自己来表达
the way I see things. 我看待事物的方式
That's William Burroughs. 那是威廉·伯勒斯
Philip Glass on the left, Robert Wilson on the right. 左边是菲利普·格拉斯，右边是罗伯特·威尔逊
And Donald Sutherland, one of the best subjects I've ever photographed. 唐纳德·萨瑟兰，我拍摄过的最好的拍摄对象之一
Annie Leibovitz, one of the most difficult subjects I've ever photographed. 安妮·莱博维茨，我拍摄过的最难的主题之一
That's Debbie Harry. 那是黛比·哈里
哈里： I sat for him a couple of times, 我有好几次坐在那里给他当模特
which was pretty scary for me the first time. 第一次的时候还蛮害怕的
Smiling wasn't his thing, you know. 他不怎么喜欢微笑
The way that he saw people was like he was seeing into them 他看人们的方式就像看到他们心里
or something, or through them. 或者是看穿他们
梅普勒索普： I don't think it's necessary to tell you 我认为没必要告诉你
who is in each photograph because if the pictures are good, 照片里都是谁，因为好的照片
then they'll transcend who they are and it doesn't matter. 自己会向你传达被摄人的自我
He became known for the elegance of his portraits. 他因肖像的优雅而出名
And any photographer who takes pictures of celebrities 任何给名流拍照的摄影师
is making a smart business move 都是在进行明智的商业决策
because those people and their friends have lots of money. 因为那些人和他们的同伴富得流油
And they buy pictures. 他们会买下照片 Yeah. 对
Well, and his social life was a part of his artistic life. 他的社交生活也是他的艺术生涯的一部分
That's right. 对 You know, 你知道的
it was all very interconnected. 这都是紧密相关的
除了拍摄自己的作品，梅普勒索普也受雇拍摄照片
每场摄影费高达10000美金
雇主会收到梅普勒索普选出的两张照片 梅普勒索普： Ideally, you get the subject to a point 理想情况下，被摄对象会
where they direct themselves. 对怎么拍摄有自己的想法
You know, they say, "Well, this is really kind of what I want to be photographed in." 他们会说：“好吧，我真的想这样拍”
I thought it was going to be a catastrophe, 我以为会是一场大灾难
and I prepared for it. 对此我准备好了
So I did take a piece of mine. 所以我让他给我拍了张照片
It was a good collaboration, right? 这是一次很好的合作，对吧？
Because he's famous not for his flower pictures. 因为他不是因为他的花卉照片出名
He's famous for his objectionable sexual representation. 他以令人反感的性爱照片而出名
梅普勒索普： You know taking pictures of sex is no different 你知道拍摄性爱照片
than photographing a flower really. 和拍摄花卉没什么区别
I mean, it's the same thing. It's just submitting to whatever's going on 我是说，这是一回事，只是呈现事物本来的样子
and trying to get the best possible view of it. 试图找出看待它的最佳角度
And nobody else can photograph flowers the way I do. 其他人不能拍出和我一样的花卉
It's just the way I see. 那是我的独家视角
Even Robert said it, that the pictures started getting very, very, slick. 就连罗伯特也说，他拍的照片开始变得非常，非常，精良
That was the word. So slick, so perfect. 就是这个词，精良，太完美了
But perfection, that's a Mapplethorpe characteristic. Perfection. 完美，这就是梅普勒索普照片的特点
Anybody who was involved in that studio will agree with me 工作室的每个人都会同意
that you just got sucked into Robert's world. 你会被罗伯特的世界吸引进去
You wanted to. It wasn't--I mean, you just did, 你要想沉浸进去，我是说，你不知不觉就沉浸进去了
I mean, it was an interesting world. 这是个妙趣横生的世界
It was a lot of excitement, it was a lot of fun, 很刺激，很有趣
but I wanted to do something else. 但是我想要做点别的
1984年，爱德华受邀在一次群体展览中展示他自己的作品， 同时也和哥哥的作品相对比呼应
Can't just be Robert's assistant for the rest of my life. 我不能一辈子只是当罗伯特的助手 1984年，爱德华受邀在一次群体展览中展示他自己的作品， 同时也和哥哥的作品相对比呼应
So then the invitation gets sent out. 于是邀请函派发出去了
Nice group of artists. All alphabetical. 一大群很棒的艺术家，都是大牌
And lo and behold, Edward Mapplethorpe comes before Robert Mapplethorpe. 然后结果你看，爱德华·梅普勒索普被写在罗伯特·梅普勒索普前面
And he was... ruthless. 他很无情
He was nasty. 很不友好
And said, 这样说道：
"I'm not gonna have any kid brother-- “我将来不认你这个弟弟”
"I've worked really hard to get where I've gotten, “我超级努力工作才取得现在的成就”
"and if you think you're gonna come and ride on my coattails..." “如果你认为你可以就这样过来骑在我身上”
梅普勒索普：如果他发表了照片
我认为对我是件很不公平的事
其他人会看见梅普勒索普这个姓氏，以为那些照片是我拍的
And I was like, "Fuck, man," I was like... 当时我真是日了狗了
"Wow." “哇唔”
And Robert asked him to change his name, 罗伯特要求他改名
which he struggled with, I think, for a while, 他犹豫了一段时间
but then he did. He changed it to Maxey. 然后他改名了，改成了麦克西
Right. But... 对，但是…
It was all about Robert. It was all about Robert. 所有事情都以罗伯特为中心
You know, they were brothers. 他们可是兄弟啊
Can't imagine what all that was like. 很难想象那是什么滋味
You know, it was a futile attempt because... 改名也没什么用，因为…
"Oh, this is Edward Maxey. He's Robert Mapplethorpe's brother." 别人会说：“噢，这是爱德华··麦克西，罗伯特·梅普勒索普的弟弟”
I was, like, "Well, what good is this doing? 我说：“好吧，这有什么好处？”
"This is ridiculous." “太可笑了”
But yeah, it sucked. 但是，感觉太糟糕了
That day sucked. 那天太糟糕了
Just like the day that he got angry at me for deciding that I was gonna leave the studio. 就像那天他因为我决定离开工作室而生我的气
This is somebody that two years earlier 两年之前
didn't know whether he wanted me in the studio with him. 他都不确定是不是要我和他一起工作
Two years later, I guess, he learned to rely on me quite a bit. 两年后，我猜他已经学会依赖我了
And was angry, very angry. 所以他对我的离开十分生气
The lifestyle of some male homosexuals 某些同性恋者的生活方式
has triggered an epidemic of a rare form of cancer. 引发了一种罕见癌症的流行
He would go to the bar in the afternoon, 他会下午去泡吧
pick up someone, have sex with them, 找一个人做爱
then go back later that night, 然后晚上又去
maybe and then pick up somebody else, 或许再找另一个人做爱
and then towards the end of the night, like, a nightcap. 然后到了晚上，再喝杯夜酒
Last weekend, Mayor Koch predicted 上周末，科赫市长预计
that The Mine Shaft would close. 矿井即将关闭
They are selling death. 他们在贩卖死亡
Places where death can be distributed. 这种地方死亡散布
They're making love in the street on top of cars and everything. 他们在大街汽车车顶上做爱
This is men. Grown men. I mean, that's not normal. 他们本是男人，成熟的男人，我是说，这不正常
Most of these people, they're not fit, they're not human beings. 这些人大多数都不健康，他们简直不是人
That have emotional problems. 他们有情感障碍
你自己的健康怎么样？
梅普勒索普：感觉挺好
这挺好，因为…我必须告诉你，有谣言说…
越来越多的人跟我说你染病了，自己还没意识到
梅普勒索普：我感觉真挺好的
1986年9月，梅普勒索普因肺炎住院
他确诊感染艾滋
'Cause I was sleeping with him for all those years, 因为这些年我一直和他睡
I thought that I was gonna die. 我以为我要死了
I came back from an appointment to get my results. 我预约了医生，拿到了检测结果回来
He was laying in the bed when I walked in, 我走进房间时他正躺在床上
and then he looked at me and then he said, 然后他看着我，说：
"You got it, right?" “你也有了，是吧？”
And I said, "No, no, no, no." I said, "I'm negative." 我说：“不不不不” 我说：“我是阴性”
And I remember, he got really upset and he goes, 我记得他十分沮丧，一个劲说：
"Then why do I have it? Why do I have it?" “为什么我得了？为什么我得了？”
And he started, like, pounding the bed. 然后他开始砸床
1987年1月14日，萨姆·瓦格斯塔夫死于艾滋
AIDS at the time was pretty much a death sentence, right? 当时艾滋就是死刑
And he, on the one hand was upset, 他一方面十分沮丧
but on the other hand, he was fascinated by the demand for his work. 但另一方面，他很高兴地发现自己工作的需求上升了
Like, his market took off 他的销量上升了
when people heard that he was about to die. 当人们听说他要死了
It really took off. 人们争先恐后找他拍照
We were very busy. 我们当时非常忙碌
We didn't stop working, and he didn't stop shooting 我们不停工作，他不停地在拍摄
until he physically couldn't get out of bed. 直到他下不了床为止
He's like, "What am I shooting next? 他总说：“我接下来拍什么？”
"Get me some flowers. Let's do that." “给我找些花过来，我们拍这个”
You know, and it--the flowers got done, the statues got done, 花卉拍了，雕塑拍了
the commissioned portraits got done. 受雇拍的肖像照拍了
梅普勒索普： One day I'll photograph flowers, 我一天拍花卉
the next day I'll do some fashion work, 第二天拍时装
the next day I'll do some pornography, and the next day, I'll do a portrait. 接下来拍点色情照片，再下面一天拍肖像
You know, I don't really care. 我真的不在乎
I sort of thought I should be keeping a journal. 我当时想我应该记录一下
"I did watch him shoot today. “我今天围观了他的拍摄”
"It's so amazing to see how he musters the energy to do the pictures. “看到他如何集中精力拍这些照片真是太不可思议了”
"It absolutely keeps him going. “这让他坚持下去”
"And the money. Funny money." “以及挣钱，可笑的钱”
（梅普勒索普执导的商业广告）
He was never interested in talking about his health. 他从来不想谈论他的健康状况
All he wanted to talk about was sales and who was looking at his work, 只想谈论销量还有谁想找他拍照
and when are we gonna have a million-dollar a month. 还有什么时候我们能月入百万
迈克尔·斯托特（梅普勒索普的律师）： He was interested in making as much money as possible. 他当时想要尽可能赚更多的钱
And he resented the fact that his contemporaries', like Brice Marden, 他对和他同时代的人，如布赖斯·马登
works started selling for several hundred thousand dollars. 开始以几十万美元的价格出售作品感到不满
And Robert's works were selling for $1,100. 罗伯特的作品售价1100美元
Mapplethorpe, had a sort of jealous or competitive relationship with Warhol. 梅普勒索普与沃霍尔有一种嫉妒或竞争的关系
He would say to me weekly, 他每周都会问我：
"If I die, will I have died with as much money as Andy Warhol had?" “我死的时候能有和安迪·沃霍尔一样多的钱吗？”
And I'd say, "No. Not nearly, not nearly." 我会说：“不，还差得多，还差得多”
布莱恩·英格力什（工作室助理）： I remember him saying to me once, how frustrated he was about being ill 我记得有一次他对我说，他对生病感到多么沮丧
because he was getting all this money now, 因为他现在赚了这么多钱
and he actually said, 他的原话是：
"I won't be able to enjoy it." “我无福消受了”
He was not very interested in leaving money to people. 他不是很想把财产留给别人
1988年，梅普勒索普成立了一个基金会， 支持艾滋病研究及摄影艺术的事业 So the foundation idea really began to appeal to him 所以组建基金会的想法逐渐开始吸引他
because his money, his assets, his real estate, his art collection 他的钱，他的财产，他的房地产，他的艺术收藏
would support his foundation. 将支持他的基金会
So, it would automatically promote him. 这也自然有利于他的名声
Robert sent for me for his birthday, 罗伯特请我去
his 40th birthday party, 他40岁的生日派对
That's when I was like, "Whoa. This is not good." 我当时想：“大事不妙”
爱德华回到梅普勒索普的工作室工作， 当时罗伯特开始准备一本新的摄影集《一些女性》
Robert Mapplethorpe's way to interpret me 罗伯特·梅普勒索普呈现我的方式
was totally different than any other photographer. 与其他摄影师截然不同
He wanted my hair back, so that was unusual to me. 他想要我的头发倒立起来，这对我来说很不寻常
Everybody has always wanted me to do a hairdo. 其他人都总想让我做个发型
He wanted a very, very natural feel. 但他想要一种非常自然的感觉
I look like an angel on that picture. 在照片中我像个天使一样
So, how can I not be pleased? 所以，我有什么好不高兴的
He was the first photographer to photograph me completely in profile. 他是第一个完全从侧面拍摄我的摄影师
It's never--He was the only one. 从来没——他是唯一一个
The profile was just so much more soul-baring. 那侧面照更能将我的灵魂展现出来
I got to sort of study him. 我观察了他一阵子
He didn't seem happy. Everything seemed precious, 他看起来不高兴，一切似乎都很珍贵
and I think there was no sense of wanting to waste time or be frivolous. 我想他一点也不想浪费时间或轻浮度日
In German, you say--there is this word, getrieben, 在德国，有个词叫getrieben
which means as if something is chasing you constantly. 意思是好像有什么东西一直在追赶着你
I used to go and visit him. We both sense that he was dying, 我过去常去拜访他，我们都感觉到他的日子不多了
but we didn't talk about it. 但我们从来不谈论这个
And he had that very sad expression, 他表情很忧伤
because he didn't want to leave. 因为他不想离开
He wanted to stay, you know? 他想要活下来
And one day he said, 有一天他说：
"I need to take a photograph of you “我需要给你拍张照片”
"and you need this one because this is going to be the last one," “你也需要这张照片，因为这会是最后一幅”
is what he say. I say, "Don't be silly." 他这么说的，我说：“别傻了”
And it was. 然后这的确是最后一幅
It was just sort of 事情发生之前
business as usual until things progressed, 一切照旧
and he was having a harder and harder time getting out of his seat and... 他从座位上爬起来越来越难，而且…
And he had a horrible, horrible cough, 他咳嗽得特别厉害
which I guess was typical. 我想这是典型症状了
Six o'clock would roll around and then he'd sort of be like, 到了六点钟，他会说：
"Can you come keep me company?" “你能陪陪我吗？”
It was this little boy. "Don't leave. Stay with me." 就像是小男孩一样：“别走，和我在一起”
Yeah, little baby voice. 小婴儿的声音
Robert was in his bedroom, not feeling particularly well, 罗伯特待在他的卧室，感觉很不好
and he's like, you know, he's like, "I'd like to do a picture 他说：“我想要拍张照”
"with my hand holding the skull cane." “我的手拿着骷髅拐杖”
And I said to Brian, I said, "Listen, this has got to be a self-portrait." 然后我跟布莱恩说：“听着，这必须是张自拍”
And it wasn't often that he'd want to take his own picture, 他不经常想要自己拍照
but he had been trying. 但一直在尝试
I took the skull cane and I held it like this, 我拿了骷髅拐杖，像这样拿着
and I said, "Do a Polaroid." 我说：“拍张宝丽来试试”
I brought it to Robert, he was like, "Wow. That's good." 我拿给罗伯特看，他说：“哇哦，挺好的”
His knee started to hurt, 他的膝盖开始痛了
so we put a chair in for him to sit on. 所以我们搬了张椅子让他坐下
That's the classic masterpiece picture. 那是张经典摄影杰作
It's a tremendous photograph, 这是一张了不起的照片
one of the greatest self-portraits of all time. 有史以来最伟大的自拍照之一
41岁时，在惠特尼举办了梅普勒索普职业生涯中期回顾展， 对摄影师而言这是一项少见的荣誉
It's 2:38 here in the WNBC. 现在是下午2点38分，美国国家广播公司向您播报
Weather: cloudy, breezy, chance of showers 天气多云，微风，有阵雨的概率
and thunderstorms right through the evening. 整个晚上都有雷雨
The low tonight in the low 60s, right now, 74 degrees. 今晚的最低温度华氏60度，现在是华氏74度
There was something electric that day. 那是充满刺激的一天
It wasn't just an opening. 那不仅仅是个开幕式
It was a... 那是个…
a memorial with a living corpse. 一个将死之人的悼念仪式
Your heart just went out to him 你的心与他同在
because here he was having the success that he dreamed of 因为他正享受着他梦寐以求的成功
from those days in coffee shops in the Village, 这些梦想当他还在村里的咖啡店时就有了
and, you know, you could tell he was dying. 而且，你能看出他正在死去
Not too much. 刚好合适
This is--someone took this picture of me 这是某人给我拍的照片
taking a picture of him. 照片里我正在拍他
He knew what I was doing there. 他知道我在那干些什么
I think he understood the whole thing. 我觉得他理解这回事
He didn't like it, but he understood it. 他不喜欢，但是理解
I think that was his proudest day, I really do. 我真的认为那是他最骄傲的一天
He looked like the king sitting there. 他看上去就像是国王坐在那
It had everything from flowers to fist-fucking. 回顾展上什么都有，从花卉到拳交
And I had to go around the room with my mother in a wheelchair. 我还得推着轮椅带着我妈妈到处参观
Wow, yeah. 哇喔
When I saw the one with the whip, 当我看到牛鞭的那张照片
I said, "Oh, my God." 我说了句：“我的天呐”
And I ran and go to my kids and-- 我跑到我的孩子身边
"That's him? It was a self-portrait?" “（照片里）那是他？那是张自拍？”
He loved attention, 他喜欢被关注
even though it had to do with the fact that he was a dying man, 虽然这与他即将死去有关
it didn't matter. 无所谓了
It was one picture. I mean it stunned people. 有张照片让人震惊
We all sort of were under the impression it was gonna be this glorious article, 我们都以为回顾展的报道会道尽荣耀
when in fact, that was sad. 事实上却教人难过 Yeah. 对
I'm sure he saw his own mortality... 我相信他看到了自己的死亡… Yeah. 嗯
...very clearly at that moment. 在那一刻一清二楚
His image out there, this handsome, vain, elegant creature, 他曾经在人们心中的形象是一个英俊、自负、优雅的人
and people really were shocked. 人们（看到这张照片后）被震惊了
I mean, come on, it was like, he was alive. 我是说，得了吧，他还活着呢
面对死亡，梅普勒索普筹划了最后的展览：《完美时刻》
Working with Robert Mapplethorpe has been 与罗伯特·梅普勒索普合作是
my most enlightening 我最具启发性
and rewarding curatorial experience. 和回报丰富的策展经历
I felt that Robert Mapplethorpe's work was so important. 我感觉罗伯特·梅普勒索普的作品太重要了
So I went to New York and visited him at his studio. 所以我专程到了纽约，到他的工作室去拜访他
We started to talk. He was very easy to talk to. 我们开始聊天，他很平易近人
I felt after five minutes that I had known him a long time. 五分钟后我就觉得他像是一个老朋友了
梅普勒索普： Have you ever seen the X, Y, Z portfolios? 你有看过X、Y、Z组合系列吗？
There's an X portfolio which is sex pictures, there's 13 of them, X组合系列是一些性爱照片，一共13张
and then there's Y which is flowers, Y组合系列是花卉
and the Z which is blacks. Z组合系列是黑人
He was particularly interested in showing the X, Y, Z series, 他对于展示X、Y、Z系列尤其感兴趣
which had not been shown before in its entirety. 这三个系列从来没有作为整体展示过
梅普勒索普：It may be interesting to have a wall 找堵墙，分别将
where you have a row of X, Y, and Z X、Y、Z系列一批一批挂在上面
on one mass, sort of, in three rows of something. 排列成三排，或许会很有趣
We devised a way of displaying them 我们设计了一种方式展示那些照片
in a case that would be so high that a child could not see into it, 有些照片对小孩而言太高了，不能够看到
but an adult could look down upon it. 但是成人可以低头看到
I remember showing my husband some of the pictures 我记得在展览开幕之前
before the exhibition opened. 我向我丈夫展示了其中一些照片
He said, "Janet, do you know what you're doing?" 他问我：“珍妮特，你知道你在做什么吗？”
But I didn't listen to him. Maybe I was crazy. 但我没有听他的，也许是我疯了
1988年12月9日，《完美时刻》在费城开幕 梅普勒索普病重而没能出席
Hi, Robert! 嗨，罗伯特！
Here we are. You're with us. 我们在这里，你与我们同在
You're with us and we're with you. 你与我们同在，我们也与你同在
I think you can tell whether a show is successful by the sound in the gallery. 我认为你可以从展览馆中的声音看出一次展览是否是成功的
If people are talking a lot, you know, somehow the show just doesn't have it. 如果人们说个不停，那么展览就没能成功
In the Mapplethorpe show, there was silence. 在梅普勒索普的展览，大家一片沉默
You could hear a pin drop. 你可以听见针掉在地上的声音
This one time, it was a terrible night for Robert 那一晚上对罗伯特而言很不好过
and he was almost hallucinating a bit 他几乎出现幻觉了
and he ended up pulling out some of the IVs, 最后他拔掉了几个输液吊瓶
so I had blood dripping out of his arm, and IVs, 血从他的胳膊中流出来
and I had to--he--I know I had to clean him up. 我得——我知道我得把他清洗干净
He'd shat in the bed, and I'm like, "Oh, my God." 他会在床上大便失禁，我就在想：“我的天”
That night, Robert looked at me teary-eyed, crying, 那天晚上，罗伯特泪眼朦胧地看着我，哭着
and said, "Oh, my God." He's like, "I'm dying. 他说：“天呐，我要死了”
"I'm dying." “我要死了” And I had to say, "Yeah." 我只好说：“是的”
What could you--I couldn't--I mean, "Yes." 我还能说些什么呢，我是说，他要死了
Robert gave a going-away party for himself, 罗伯特为自己办了一场欢送派对
a lavish cocktail party at his loft. 在他的阁楼办的一场奢华派对，大家都喝着鸡尾酒
Waiters walking around with silver trays 服务员端着银盘子四处走动
with a little tiny Bellini and caviar and champagne. 上面放着一点贝里尼鸡尾酒、鱼子酱和香槟
It was very elegant. 派对优雅至极
梅普勒索普：那是个挺棒的派对
我知道怎么办派对，不管那是狂欢会还是鸡尾酒派对
我知道该怎么办
And Robert was sitting in the middle of the room. 罗伯特坐在房间正中间
I walked up to him and kneeled down at his feet 我走到他跟前，跪在他的脚下
and came face-to-face with him. 和他面对面
He said, "You still look so beautiful." 他说：“你看上去还是美丽动人”
And I said, "Thank you." 我说：“谢谢”
梅普勒索普告诉克罗兰他正在与传记作家帕特丽夏·莫里斯罗合作
I said, "What do you want me to do?" 我说：“你需要我做些什么吗？”
He said, "I want you to tell her everything. 他说：“我想让你告诉她一切”
Keep me alive." “让我永留世间”
"March 8th. Well, this is it. “3月8日，这就是结局了”
"The last two days have been hell. 最后两天像地狱一样折磨人
"The funny part is not knowing how to say goodbye. “好笑的是我们不知道该如何说再见”
"Letting go. Are words enough?" “让他去吧，还需要多说点什么吗？”
I was just like, "Come on, Robert." 我只是说：“加油，罗伯特”
Just like have a conversation with me 跟我聊聊天
and just say, "You know what, I'm proud of you, 对他说：“你知道吗，我为你感到骄傲”
and just keep it going, and just do good work." “继续活着啊，继续创作好的作品”
And...never got it. 但…没能让他坚持下来
Never got it. 没能让他坚持下来
你高兴吗？
梅普勒索普： Some days, yes, and some days, no. 时喜时忧吧
You know, on a daily basis, 日常生活中
I would say in any given day, I'm happy part of the time 每天我都有高兴的时候
and not the rest, you know. 也有不高兴的时候
I think I'm a perfectionist and I think it's hard to be happy 我认为我是个完美主义者，如果你希望所有事情都是完美的
if you like things to be perfect 那就很难高兴起来
because things are not perfect. 因为万事万物并不完美
罗伯特·梅普勒索普于1989年3月9日早上5:30逝世，享年48岁
《完美时刻》仍在全国进行巡展 I don't know whether the television cameras can see it or not. 我不知道摄影机能不能拍到
I'm gonna be fast enough with it that they can't. 我会迅速地展示这些照片，尽量不让摄影机拍到
But I want senators to come over here, if they have any doubt 但如果有议员对此持有怀疑，我希望他们亲自过来
1989年6月，展览到达华盛顿特区 and look at the pictures. 看看这些照片
I don't even acknowledge that it's art. 我甚至不认为那是艺术
I don't even acknowledge 我一点也不认为
that the fellow who did it was an artist. 拍出这种照片的人是个艺术家
I think he was a jerk. 我认为他是一个混蛋
华盛顿科科伦画廊在开幕式之前紧急取消了展览，引发抗议
五周后，另一家展览馆开放展览，参观人群破纪录
This line is for two o'clock only. 这还仅仅只是两点钟场次的队伍
You need a pass to get in to see the exhibition. 你需要一张通行证才能进去看展览
梅普勒索普去世一年后，《完美时刻》在辛辛那提开幕
It happened. 就这样发生了
What you're watching now is the Cincinnati Police as they made their move today 你现在看到的是辛辛那提警方
against The Contemporary Arts Center. 他们今天向当代艺术中心发起了行动
They temporarily closed 他们暂时关闭了
the controversial Robert Mapplethorpe exhibit 饱受争议的梅普勒索普摄影展
that resulted in charges today against The Contemporary Arts Center and its director. 当代艺术中心及其负责人受到指控
It's an important exhibition. It's important for this city 这是场重要的展览，在这里被人看到
that it be seen here. 对这座城市有重要意义
“同性性行为罪恶滔天” “我不会为拳交照片付钱”
“支持赫尔姆斯修正案” 丹尼斯·巴里（辛辛那提当代艺术中心）： It was suggested that I wear a bulletproof vest. 我被建议穿一件防弹背心
There would be calls to the home or calls to my office 电话打到我家里，打到我办公室
saying, "We're gonna kill your children." 说：“我们要杀了你的孩子”
《完美时刻》包含175幅照片
其中只有一小部分面临起诉
The art gallery and its director 因为展览罗伯特·佩普勒索普晚期摄影作品
are charged with obscenity for exhibiting photographs by the late Robert Mapplethorpe. 美术馆和馆长被指控淫秽色情
The jury took about two hours to come up with its decision. 陪审团花了大约两个小时才作出决定
We, the jury in this case, find the defendant not guilty 陪审团在本案中，认为被告无罪
of pandering obscenity. 没有犯淫秽罪
Order! Order! 秩序！秩序！
Next up is the Robert Mapplethorpe Flag, 接下来一件卖品是罗伯特·梅普勒索普的代表作
the great "Star-Spangled Banner," gelatin silver print, 著名的《星条旗》，明胶银色印本
for $48,000. Now goes to 48,000, 48万美元起售
48,000, 50, 55,000, 60, 65,000. Thank you, ma'am. 48万，50万，55万，60万，65万，谢谢您女士
He was always giving me his work. 他总是赠送给我他的作品
$70,000 with Caroline. 卡罗琳女士出价70万美元
I had, at least, half a dozen photographs and a collage. 我至少有半打照片和一幅拼贴画
$70,000. 70万美元
Don't ask me what I did with this, please, 求你不要问我用那些作品干了什么
because if I kept it, I wouldn't be here. I'd be in my villa in Tuscany. 因为如果我还留着，我就不会在这里了，我会在我托斯卡纳的别墅里
I can't discuss, too upsetting. 我不能谈这件事，太让人沮丧了
Sold! 成交！
I threw it away. 我扔掉了
Sold! 成交！
When I moved. 搬家的时候
Sold! 成交！
I told this once to an art dealer. 我曾经把这件事告诉过一个艺术品经销商
And he said, "I can't believe you didn't know 然后他说：“不敢相信你不清楚”
"that someone as ambitious as Robert--as clearly ambitious, wouldn't become famous." “像梅普勒索普这样野心勃勃的人，怎么可能不会出名”
1992年，古根海姆博物馆用梅普勒索普基金会 资助的五百万美金，开始收藏摄影作品 And I said, "No one could have imagined 我说：“没人料到”
"that photographs would be so valuable financially." “照片会有这么高的经济价值”
Because they weren't. No photographs were. “因为照片从来就不值钱”
It wasn't just that I couldn't imagine it. No one could imagine it. “不仅是我没料到，没人能够料到”
1998年，梅普勒索普的遗产估值2.28亿美元 Whatever it took to become Robert Mapplethorpe 无论是什么成就了梅普勒索普
is what it was gonna take 正是为了成功所需要付出的
and it took his life to do it... 为了成功他付出了自己的生命
Literally. 真的
感谢观看 （后面还有一点点）
字幕制作&翻译：基尔戈·特劳特
若想继续了解梅普勒索普和帕蒂·史密斯的往事， 推荐阅读帕蒂·史密斯的著作《只是孩子》
Mapplethorpe by himself, the name is really great. 梅普勒索普这个名字很棒
It's like Titian or Piranesi. 就像提香或者皮拉内西
Just the name, that's all you need 只有姓氏，这就是你所需要的全部了
is the last name to recognize the artist. 你只需要姓氏就可以识别一个艺术家
It's so clear and simple. 简单明了
What if you stacked three images into the... 如果你把三张照片叠加到…
We can't have nudity on the street banners 'cause the city regulations. 我们不能在街上放裸体横幅，因为城规
So that's one point of discussion, second is the color. 那是需要讨论的一点，另一点是颜色
This is a mock-up of the invitation for our opening reception. 这是我们开幕式招待会的邀请函的实物样品
His self-portrait on the front, then inside message. 前面是他的自拍照，然后里面的信息
Then the RSVP card. 然后是一个“敬请赐复”的卡片
It's just an innocuous flower, not anything that the Post Office would object to. 这只是一朵无伤大雅的花，不是邮局反对的任何东西
I'm not planning to put a curtain, but I'm sure 我不打算放一些遮挡物
there'll be some kind of warning on the gallery as people go in. 但入口会有某种警示标语
Well, and with her holding her sculpture. 还有她拿着她的雕塑
-Oh, that was purposeful. 噢，那是故意的 -Yeah, it's so great. 嗯，太棒了
I wanted to put Louise Bourgeois holding her sculpture, Lafayette, 我想让路易丝·布尔乔亚拿着她的雕塑《拉斐特》
which looks like a phallus, next to the picture of "Man in the Polyester Suit." 看起来像一个阴茎，旁边是《穿涤纶装的男人》
-Yes, with his actual phallus. 上面有真的男人阴茎 -It's a curatorial pun. 这是个双关